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Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead => The Bunker - Gameplay, Tactics, and General Discussion => Topic started by: Thwap on September 07, 2016, 01:33:41 PM

Title: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Thwap on September 07, 2016, 01:33:41 PM
The magazines, the filthy clothes, the boom cranes, the book learning nerf, now I see on Reddit that electric motors are nerfed, and I'm pretty sure I heard solar was nerfed more at some point.

By the way, how is this "SOLAR ELECTRIC A FAD, GASOLINE REIGNS SUPREME" business supposed to be justified decades in the future? Is this game taking money from Exxon or something?

Point is, this game has been run into the ground with neckbeardy "realism" fetishism, and there's no real reason for anyone who isn't a Dwarf Fortress enthusiast with OCD to bother since interesting content additions have been inversely proportional to pointless crippling nerfs for ages now.

It's not even worth lobbying for changes or worrying about mods at this point since there are just so many nerfs and sources of tedium running so deep now. It's all reached critical mass.

Myself and the couple people I know who play this have a late 2015 experimental backed up in a couple places and at this point we effectively consider it the final version. I don't even really have anything to say except this: Grats on running a great game into the ground.

A year from now when NPCs still suck and all those portals still lead nowhere, and you're busily implementing a realistic toenail growth and trimming system, remember this post.

Adios.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 07, 2016, 02:16:10 PM
Electric motors were buffed, not nerfed. Especially the weaker ones, which got a big efficiency boost.

I agree about the filthiness and boom cranes.
Filthiness (its current form) kinda creeped up and I wasn't there to veto it. It was fine when it was a strict trait with no way around it, but turned into a major annoyance. I'm pushing for removal, but it isn't working too well...
Boom cranes are partly my fault. I OK'd them hoping they'll work, but they turned out to be bad.

Solars are still good, I don't know what you mean.
NPCs got a lot of work since "back then". They are worth keeping around, they defend against other NPCs, can be equipped with things etc.

Honestly, as uninformed and emotional this thread is, we actually do need ones like it. Otherwise it's very easy for someone to go all "you know what does this game need? realistic simulation of discomfort from sleeping in armor/tool damage from use/boots wearing down when walking/skill rust". I keep shooting down ideas like this because I learned from the earlier mistakes, but filthiness managed to happen anyway.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: survivornaginata on September 07, 2016, 03:38:32 PM
as far as i know both filty clothes and magasines and nutrition  can be disabled in options if you dislike them.i personally dont mind amd like added realism and they didnt infleunce my game at all but i have specific play style-melee character who use almost  exlusively  self made clothes though i dont mind using some fllthy clothes for temporary or desperate protection when my clothes get teared apart.

As for npc i basically turn every game i play into squad simulation with my npc team doing most of killing for me.with added pikcup options some of food managemtnt is eliminated but more can be done especially their annoying running from you as you finish quests and must chase them with cars to tell them you finished.

as per filthy clothes i find their color usefull in searhching for objects other than clothes.their penalties are small basically naglible and i dont know whats the fuss.simple make your own clothes or get clean ones in buildings.cleaning them is aslo not that difficult.on normal difficulty its quite easy to raid houses on edge of town and get some clean clothes to absolve morale penalties.

steel booms are probablly thing which inflenced my game most and make problems with recovery of  damaged heavy vehicles.but as avaible heavy vehicles were basically middle end game for me  i kind of like added difficulty in obtaining them.

I would like all of them to stay in game and if most people mind their existensce they can be mods for difficulty.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Jarlaxlejr on September 07, 2016, 03:54:04 PM
 Honestly the only thing that has been a huge pain is filthy clothes and honestly I see why my character might be grossed out by wearing flesh and blood soaked clothing.
 The magazine system is awesome, I actually look forward to when specific items can be put into backpacks/bags but maybe that's just me.
 The NPC's have come so far since I first downloaded this game I see no reason to think you're just not trolling or haven't tried them out. If you haven't tried them out, do so. It'll take a little time to figure out all the stuff you can do with them now but they are tons better.
 All in all this game has come along way since the first time I played it, there is always a TON of new content and I love it all. Took a 2 month break awhile back, downloaded latest experimental and it was almost like a new game!
 I guess some people just don't like change.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on September 07, 2016, 04:03:18 PM
I guess I kinda wish some of it was automated. I mean, I appreciate the detail and the effort, but I don't appreciate chores. Ya know?

Detail tends to bring further design and usability challenges, e.g. magazines vs. which ammo type to load into them... repeatedly.

- Automatically refill partially filled magazines while idle or walking if identical ammo is carried. Or is that good behaviour?
- Clean all worn and carried filthy clothing automatically when standing next to a water source.
- Option to pass time for 1-3 days when "at a safe location". Read and eat automatically or randomly, prioritizing carried stuff or nearby stuff first.

And then there's this sort of thing: In fact I think washed cotton or wool clothes should get wet like towels, and wet clothes should wreak havoc at cold or windy weather until they're dry. But if you just create the wetness part without the cold affecting the player, that's just, well, pathetic and an annoyance.

Also, I in fact think there isn't ENOUGH simulation. All the major areas of simulation are just... lacking. They aren't properly interconnected. They're just a collection of individual mechanics. Calorie consumption vs. body heat production vs. weather conditions vs. clothing vs. dehydration vs. exertion. But hot ambient temps do increase thirst, I think, which is good. One major area that's missing is moisture build-up beneath clothing. With wrong clothing in wrong weather and under moderate exertion, you'll start sweating like crazy... and sweating means getting wet, which can be very, very bad. Clothing has permeability. Something like a raincoat doesn't let any sweat to evaporate. That's why we have gore-tex and its kind (it lets water vapor through but not liquid water).

But the problem is really the programming skill and personal energy reserves. Coders do what they can. It's bit like how cops work - they solve A) the crimes (bugs) they CAN solve and B) the really serious crimes (bugs) that just can't go uninvestigated.

Another major thing is uninformed playerbase. We're gamers, not seasoned survivalists. Some of us look for the detailed simulation, some of us want relaxed gameplay within the confines of one's own accumulated knowledge. Most of us don't know all the things that go into surviving in the woods, or surviving after the society has collapsed. It's... actually complex and detailed stuff. Personally the amount of knowledge almost cripples me, psychologically speaking.

People will complain about obvious discrepancies, and when they're addressed, the results might be... unfavourable or surprisingly displeasing, even demoralizing.

But, you know... what can ya do? *SHRUG*

What to blame here, really? We're humans - imperfect and limited, never satisfied and always looking for the next thing. Capable of getting bored and tired. Unwitting addicts prone to failure. Such grand and glorious existence, no? 8D
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Findulidas on September 07, 2016, 04:15:14 PM
While I agree on the fact that realism should not go over the rule of fun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun), rule of cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) or rule of awesome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomenessIsAForce?from=Main.RuleOfAwesome) I still think you are a bit too harsh. If not emotionally biased (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks). In addition Im personally fairly unimpressed by basically calling people neckbeards with OCD that dont agree with you. The only people I know that use expressions like that are real social rejects on 4chan and/or immature and insecure teenagers.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on September 07, 2016, 04:53:21 PM
I wouldn't have a single complaint with this game at all if the devs made more of this shit optional. The reason you rarely hear me griping about nutrition and faulty parts is because I'm free to turn them off before I start up a game. Having filthy clothes and lifting equipment Jsoned or made optional would be a decent attempt at compromise.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on September 07, 2016, 06:44:09 PM
While I agree on the fact that realism should not go over the rule of fun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun), rule of cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) or rule of awesome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomenessIsAForce?from=Main.RuleOfAwesome) I still think you are a bit too harsh. If not emotionally biased (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks). In addition Im personally fairly unimpressed by basically calling people neckbeards with OCD that dont agree with you.
I concur.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: jcd on September 07, 2016, 08:56:24 PM
Honestly, as uninformed and emotional this thread is, we actually do need ones like it. Otherwise it's very easy for someone to go all "you know what does this game need? realistic simulation of discomfort from sleeping in armor/tool damage from use/boots wearing down when walking/skill rust"
My feelings exactly.

I recently played a game (meaning i reach mid game+ /  played for 200 days or more) after an 8 month period.
One (not the only one) reason i haven't played that much recently is all these realism mechanics.
They usually sound fine and good (weapon durability etc.), but tend to be grindy and add nothing really important.


To be sure, i have not contributed very much to cata, but i've been around for 2,5 years now. Nerfs are easy to do and required from time to time (EV needed many nerfs to stop being a non-brainer). But overdoing it is really bad for the game and needs care.


IMO, what cata needs are the hard-to-do stuff, that people (especially new devs) would hate to do (since they are complicated to achieve). Older devs do some of these, but their time is limited and not nearly enough usually. Off the top of my head:

- Fixing/rebalancing the food/nutrition system in order to not be either "just cooked meat" or "always grinding for food" or "scurvy/calcium deficiency" - but still to not require spending half a day looking for food (even if it is realistic for an apocalypse)

- NPC ability to do things independently (could abstract this and not have them do it in real time) without nagging the player for a glass of water

- NPC-bases reworked

- NPC questlines expanded & NPC faction wars

- Z-level interactions & expansion (still requires fixing the LOS system and noone but Coolthulhu has touched them, correct?)

- Non-flat map, other biomes, climbing onto trees and cliffs (needs the z-levels fixed first and is a ton of work on its own)

- More water stuff. Swimming expanded, buildings, boats, NPC riverboat pirates!

- Reworked map generation. JSONise it as much as possible and make it easy to work with.

In general, we do not need too many nerfs and we do not need to many new monsters, or items, or recipes, or materials. But we need more interesting world!
In short, i would like cata to focus on expanding the world (eg. there was a Railroad PR for a loong time, was half ready but never completed :'( ) and the people within it.

But as i said, i am not the one doing the work, which is the most important thing in an Open-Source project. So my words are not backed with work. Still if devs agree, there could be some sort of roadmap and guidelines for new contributors.

As a design path, i would like small-scale mechanics that do not have overwhelming effects - but interact in interesting ways with each other (and are mostly unsusceptible to player influence - thus not grindy)


Anyway, just my 0.02Euros, hope it is of use to someone.


EDIT
For the record, i got to say that i actually do like the magazines system, specifically.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: vultures on September 07, 2016, 09:58:56 PM
Hi there fella CataDDA-tors, long time no see. :-)

Most sincerely, I grabbed my last experimental just before the "yummy" clothes nerf kicked in, and I've just downloaded the latest nightly to check it and say hello to everyone. Kinda busy with work and all, I still own every single Cata build I've downloaded and I'm looking forward to dive in tonight's one, too.

I haven't been idle all the way 'till tonight, and I've gotta say there are a lot of folks challenging the idea zombie clothes are all but useless. The initial game phase, the moment you're honing your skills and gathering equipment and supplies, heavily relies upon making use of whatever pieces of clothing you can salvage. I don't feel the need to point out, though it is implied, that newcomers may find this particular modification exceptionally heavy to embrace.

Never have I insisted on devs' decisions and never should I, so all I'll leave is a thoroughly thought-of suggestion. Find a sufficient mechanism, that's all I need to say. Think about game design, whereas getting rid of items earned on your adventuring path shouldn't hamper character progression. If an item is bad, offer a shorter path to salvaging whatever scraps might be useful - or just plainly destroy it and clear the path forth. Don't introduce mechanics that feel unnatural to a casual gamer, make use of the player base instead. It should prove enough for every future feature-test you've got in your plans.


I've made this short just so I could go and play latest CataDDA. Stay sound, I love ya all.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 07, 2016, 10:09:23 PM
I have always, repeatedly, advocated the idea that realism needs to ADD to gameplay, not detract from it. Despite the OP's use of Dwarf Fortress as an example, I enjoy the realism features of DF a lot more than I enjoyed most of the "realistic" additions to this game.

I was present for the foundation of magazines. I agree that having made a way to disable them was a smart idea, but personally they add to the gameplay dynamics far more than catching scurvy or not wearing clothes that are ALREADY too tattered to wear.

And then there were features like the sewing change to a long action. This is sensible in THEORY, but in practice it balances sewing by adding player hassle and excessive thread consumption, and when it was first added the chance of item damage was royally fucked in the ass, and this making repairs MORE unrealistic than they used to be.

I was also the one that added shields, and the mechanics behind them. Some of the foundation is annoying, like being unable to hold a jerrycan if you're wearing a briefcase. I would've been fine with adding shields to medieval mod as purely passive armor, but Kevin and Coolthulhu insisted otherwise. Perhaps I shoud've added lesser penalties like attack roll debuffs or something in between "can wield this" and "nope, fuck you" but what I added ALREADY tested the limits of my abilities.

Also? Filthy clothes, their mere existence isn't the problem. It's the fact that they do NOT have the intended effect of balancing zombie clothes, and they are purely a morale effect. Dwarf Fortress makes body filth affect odds of getting infection from injuries. Filthy clothes having that effect would be perfectly logical.

Instead you have an effect that does jack shit to prevent players from using flithy clothes, is a pain in the ass to clean up, and is FAR LESS effective a balancing element than the pre-exisitng feature of zombie clothes spawning with random damage. That deters players from wearing kill drops lest it get torn to pieces. A small hit to morale, in a game where 90% of the things you can do will affect morale, is a literally useless feature.

I also want to point out the amusing coincidence that the drama between Kevin and I hit its peak, and I was booted from the project, a bit over 6 months ago. :V
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on September 07, 2016, 10:14:43 PM
There is a roadmap/design doc.

http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5559.0

It seems as though attention is not really being paid to it thought. If you look back through the suggestions forums, you'll also notice that things that were shot down in say, 2014 as tedious and un-fun are now in game. Here's a few examples:

(click to show/hide)

A few examples. I'm pretty sure I could find more if I wanted to.

I agree about the filthiness and boom cranes.
Filthiness (its current form) kinda creeped up and I wasn't there to veto it. It was fine when it was a strict trait with no way around it, but turned into a major annoyance. I'm pushing for removal, but it isn't working too well...
Boom cranes are partly my fault. I OK'd them hoping they'll work, but they turned out to be bad.

For some reason, the concept of only one of the more active devs getting why this crap makes for a bad game bodes poorly to me.

I wouldn't have a single complaint with this game at all if the devs made more of this shit optional. The reason you rarely hear me griping about nutrition and faulty parts is because I'm free to turn them off before I start up a game. Having filthy clothes and lifting equipment Jsoned or made optional would be a decent attempt at compromise.

I don't think anyone could find fault with doing things this way. The devs would be free to introduce whatever they please, "good" or "bad", and the rest of us would be free to like or dislike it without it making the game suck.

I was also the one that added shields, and the mechanics behind them. Some of the foundation is annoying, like being unable to hold a jerrycan if you're wearing a briefcase. I would've been fine with adding shields to medieval mod as purely passive armor, but Kevin and Coolthulhu insisted otherwise. Perhaps I shoud've added lesser penalties like attack roll debuffs or something in between "can wield this" and "nope, fuck you" but what I added ALREADY tested the limits of my abilities.

C'mon RD, everyone knows jerrycans are a twohanded job!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 07, 2016, 10:17:44 PM
For some reason, the concept of only one of the more active devs getting why this crap makes for a bad game bodes poorly to me.

No idea what Rivet's opinion on these game design fuckups are, but she at least is generally as sensible as Coolthulhu about game design, moreso than Kevin.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on September 07, 2016, 10:21:40 PM
For some reason, the concept of only one of the more active devs getting why this crap makes for a bad game bodes poorly to me.

No idea what Rivet's opinion on these game design fuckups are, but she at least is generally as sensible as Coolthulhu about game design, moreso than Kevin.

I dunno, I took the "I wasn't there to veto it" thing to mean that Cata is always on the precipice of tumbling into a bog of wretched, horribly unfun design choices, and that this brave knight is the one person who stops the un-fun from consuming everything on a fairly regular basis.

But maybe I'm just reading into that a bit much.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 07, 2016, 10:24:14 PM
Right. And while I would've have been able to outright veto the idiocy, having a (relatively) sane voice to suggest better applications of design ideas, and point out obvious fuckups, would've maybe make the game's descent into shit a bit less rapid. :V
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Commie on September 08, 2016, 12:29:14 AM
Where is the option to disable dirty clothes? I don't see it in options.

Playing on 5451
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 12:38:48 AM
Where is the option to disable dirty clothes? I don't see it in options.

Playing on 5451

You thought that dirty clothes should have an option to disable it? Congradulations, you have more sense than whoever PR'd that feature.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Commie on September 08, 2016, 12:42:19 AM
Oh I thought someone said there was.

Well I didn't play the game for a long ass time and I just DL'd it, patched the Arcana mod, glance at the forums, and see this.

What's this 'dirty clothes' thing exactly? What ig do I need to do now?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 12:49:45 AM
Basically, clothing dropped by zombies gives a completely useless morale penalty, that can easily be ignored. Or you could craft your own gear, which everyone does anyway because tattered random clothing is already solidly balanced against being relied upon.

Or you could wash the clothing with rare and elusive soap. Nevermind the fact that you can "launder" dirty clothes simply by cutting them up for nice, magically clean rags and leather.

Filthy clothing: pointless realism that isn't actually realistic.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Commie on September 08, 2016, 01:01:33 AM
Oh, so if it's not dropped by zombos I'm ok?

Do I have to worry about clothes I make (edit; or find not on a zombie, but like in a store/LMOE shelter) getting 'dirty?'
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 01:12:30 AM
As far as I know, only zombie-dropped clothes can be filthy.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on September 08, 2016, 01:16:01 AM
And then there's the thing of 'newcomers' vs. 'longtime players'.

What do the newcomers think of these controversial changes that have been introduced? I mean specifically the ones so fresh that they weren't around to experience the change.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Commie on September 08, 2016, 01:28:27 AM
As far as I know, only zombie-dropped clothes can be filthy.

Cool beans.

I have no idea what kind of drama is going on/did go on here, but thanks for all the work you did do or are doing. I really enjoy the game and your arcane mod specifically.

And then there's the thing of 'newcomers' vs. 'longtime players'.

What do the newcomers think of these controversial changes that have been introduced? I mean specifically the ones so fresh that they weren't around to experience the change.

Based on what's in this thread, keep in mind last version I played was the Cooper release...

I never wore zombie clothes, which is likely why after coming back to CDDA i didn't notice this specific controversial change. Frankly putting on zombie clothes seems disgusting. I don't know if that's a 'fun' change or not but yeah, the lowest tier of savaging behavior should have some penalty. Yeah it should be toggleable.

I like the magazine change. Yes, it's clunky, so are guns, actually. So is reloading and keeping track of magazines. I personally think this is a good change all around as it makes revolvers/lever actions get a huge advantage for long excursions as you arn't worrying about juggling and reloading 8 magazines.

Generally all my cars end up as gigantic 4 engine 8 gas tank 16 wheeled killdozers so a nerf to one kind of engine is sort of irrelevant, if it even happened.

I ran into a 'hell castle' and died. Was fun. Found a funky temple that collapsed on itself after some.... supernatural thing in the basement threw a fit due to my presence. That was fun. LMOE's arn't god-tier anymore due to noise and shit working through z-levels. I like it. Think I saw some new monsters too.

Something changed with encumbrance cause im encumbered to all hell. Seems ok though as I am just used to wearing an absurd amount of layers w/o problems.

Other then that game seems good. Still a bit sad portals and 'hellmouths' (I think) don't seem to do anything.

Feel free to bring up other features I might not know about for critique and I'll let you know what I think. I'm not at endgame currently but should be there soon.

Sorry if this post causes drama. Ya'll are adults though and I don't know anyone so it's impossible for any of this to be a 'personal attack' so don't take it that way. It's all just what I think~
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 08, 2016, 01:34:41 AM
Signed up on the forums to say that I seem to be one of the few people to actually like the Magazine system. To my knowledge, things like extended magazines weren't actually in existence before magazines were introduced, which allows more utility to guns overall. MP5 extended magazines as an example, they have about 66% more bullets in an extended magazine than a regular one which lets the MP5 scale much better later on in the game. Heck your ammo doesn't even cost volume anymore, you can just find/make pouches to store your magazines in.

I also don't get why people say magazines are tedious. It's very very easy to find magazines for most guns, super rare Rivtech and other ones aside. People also seem to underestimate just how good guns are in current experimentals. With Stamina being so punishing (can't melee hordes to death anymore which is a good thing) and ammo being common guns are actually useful and not just cool trinkets you find in towns.

Also filthiness is dumb please remove it. It taking 40 units of clean water to clean one piece of clothing is ridiculous.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 01:36:20 AM
Signed up on the forums to say that I seem to be one of the few people to actually like the Magazine system.

I didn't mind it either. I helped work on some of the research for magazines for assorted guns, especially ones I added.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Commie on September 08, 2016, 01:42:40 AM
Oh I also like the change to books and memorizing shit w/o actually doing it.

Before this it felt like every character I had was walking around with eidetic memory or something.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 01:47:32 AM
I thought I would dislike it, but you tend to hoard books anyway to grind skills, so it's kinda natural to do that.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 08, 2016, 01:57:57 AM
Yeah when I learned about that change I thought it was nice. Instead of reading all the books for a long time you can just keep them in a trunk near your crafting area and then you'll have the recipes from your nearby books, just not memorized. You do memorize them after you craft them though which makes it a pretty cool system as a whole.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 02:10:09 AM
Arcana mod also mandates that you keep the books on hand to craft, via their being tools. So this idea being a mainline feature is something with a mod-based precedent already set for it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: deoxy on September 08, 2016, 04:30:10 AM
Arcana mod also mandates that you keep the books on hand to craft, via their being tools. So this idea being a mainline feature is something with a mod-based precedent already set for it.

I love/hate that about those books.  Nifty idea, but there should be some way around it - maybe make significantly higher level recipes that are exactly the same but don't take the books?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 04:36:27 AM
It does act consistent with the idea of magic rituals though. :V
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rivet on September 08, 2016, 05:51:04 AM
No idea what Rivet's opinion on these game design fuckups are, but she at least is generally as sensible as Coolthulhu about game design, moreso than Kevin.

Filthy clothes - needs a good bit more work. The morale penalty is mostly ignorable due to the effect going away the moment the clothing in question is removed. I'm on board wit the idea behind it (I know I wouldn't want to put on this guy's (https://media.giphy.com/media/XRJmIyONbJbd6/giphy.gif) clothes) I just think it needs some refactoring. Changing the primary malus out for increased chance of infection when wounded would be an excellent step in the right direction.

Boom cranes - could use some TLC regarding their weight limits. Other than that I'm fine with the addition of jacks and such - it always struck me as odd that the character could hold a car up with one hand while changing a tire with the other.

Recipe learning requiring books during crafting - I'd like this a little more if you could learn recipes whose requirements are well below your skill level by simply reading them. A master chef shouldn't have a particularly difficult time learning an entry-level cooking recipe by simply reading it a time or three. Other than that, I'm fine with it. Used to be, people hoarded books just long enough to suck the information out of them and automagically memorize it all before casting them aside, and that never seemed right to me.

Electric motors - haven't been nerfed to the best of my knowledge, so I'm not sure what that's about.

Firearm magazines - I love this one. Looooove it. I'd rather spend the extra few seconds loading up a bunch of mags prior to engaging in combat if it means that I can swap them out as they run dry instead of having to constantly stop in the middle of the fight/disengage to load a firearm with a removable magazine - whose primary advantage over firearms with internal magazines is that you can carry lots of pre-loaded magazines with you. Previous behavior was that all guns effectively had internal magazines, and it was ridiculous that we couldn't carry spare mags in order to reload quickly on the go.

Solar panels - were nerfed a good long while ago (I think it was right after 0.C came out) because a single bog-standard panel was all it took to recharge an entire bank of large storage cells in a single afternoon. I agree with the decision, since they were waaaay too efficient before.

Point is, this game has been run into the ground with neckbeardy "realism" fetishism, and there's no real reason for anyone who isn't a Dwarf Fortress enthusiast with OCD to bother since interesting content additions have been inversely proportional to pointless crippling nerfs for ages now.

Projecting some nasty assumptions while making light of mental illness for bonus points.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 05:55:25 AM
Filthy clothes - needs a good bit more work. The morale penalty is mostly ignorable due to the effect going away the moment the clothing in question is removed. I'm on board wit the idea behind it (I know I wouldn't want to put on this guy's (https://media.giphy.com/media/XRJmIyONbJbd6/giphy.gif) clothes) I just think it needs some refactoring. Changing the primary malus out for increased chance of infection when wounded would be an excellent step in the right direction.

Yeah, I'm in favor of it having a practical purpose, not morale. Either way it was not a well-thought-out idea. Still, that's the closest to a sane answer we've got from the project heads aside from Coolthulhu's disapproval of it.

I'm also in favor of there being some option, mod, or whatever to disable it. Are there any PRs in the works doing that?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rivet on September 08, 2016, 06:07:31 AM
There's a PR (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/18229) in the pipe that adds a trait to disable the morale effect. I'll be happy to merge it once all of its lumps are hammered out.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 06:20:12 AM
I see. Huh. Looked at their error report and I'm as stumped as they are.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Commie on September 08, 2016, 09:01:29 AM
Arcana mod also mandates that you keep the books on hand to craft, via their being tools. So this idea being a mainline feature is something with a mod-based precedent already set for it.

I love/hate that about those books.  Nifty idea, but there should be some way around it - maybe make significantly higher level recipes that are exactly the same but don't take the books?

I pictured them more like spellbooks, actual magic books, compared to 'to serve man' which you just memorize.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on September 08, 2016, 09:19:40 AM
No idea what Rivet's opinion on these game design fuckups are, but she at least is generally as sensible as Coolthulhu about game design, moreso than Kevin.

Filthy clothes - needs a good bit more work. The morale penalty is mostly ignorable due to the effect going away the moment the clothing in question is removed. I'm on board wit the idea behind it (I know I wouldn't want to put on this guy's (https://media.giphy.com/media/XRJmIyONbJbd6/giphy.gif) clothes) I just think it needs some refactoring. Changing the primary malus out for increased chance of infection when wounded would be an excellent step in the right direction.


I'd disagree. Doing that would simply turn if from an apparently unpopular mechanic that people can ignore into an equally bad mechanic that people actually have to pay attention to. Conceptually, and speaking realistically, it makes sense. In terms of actually fun, it doesn't.

Quote
Boom cranes - could use some TLC regarding their weight limits. Other than that I'm fine with the addition of jacks and such - it always struck me as odd that the character could hold a car up with one hand while changing a tire with the other.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure jacks have been in game since the first few 0.C releases. Boom cranes kinda have the same logic as the above - makes sense, but for bad gameplay. Jacks are ok because you can at least move them around without too much hassle.

Quote
Recipe learning requiring books during crafting - I'd like this a little more if you could learn recipes whose requirements are well below your skill level by simply reading them. A master chef shouldn't have a particularly difficult time learning an entry-level cooking recipe by simply reading it a time or three. Other than that, I'm fine with it. Used to be, people hoarded books just long enough to suck the information out of them and automagically memorize it all before casting them aside, and that never seemed right to me.

This makes sense I think, and most people who were against this seem to be realizing they keep all their books anyway, so it doesn't matter too much. I'd certainly agree that simple shit should be easy enough to memorize, depending on your skill.

Quote
Firearm magazines - I love this one. Looooove it. I'd rather spend the extra few seconds loading up a bunch of mags prior to engaging in combat if it means that I can swap them out as they run dry instead of having to constantly stop in the middle of the fight/disengage to load a firearm with a removable magazine - whose primary advantage over firearms with internal magazines is that you can carry lots of pre-loaded magazines with you. Previous behavior was that all guns effectively had internal magazines, and it was ridiculous that we couldn't carry spare mags in order to reload quickly on the go.

This is an extra "make work" type feature that actually works well in game in my opinion. I get why people don't like it, but I can't say I have a problem with it. I think a big part of it is that you can just ignore it all together if you're not into it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: survivornaginata on September 08, 2016, 09:24:46 AM
There's a PR (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/18229) in the pipe that adds a trait to disable the morale effect. I'll be happy to merge it once all of its lumps are hammered out.
maybe upgrading outdorsman with this filth resistance would be better than adding new trait.just spring to my mid and i doubt outdorsman is used much anyway and this would be make it very  interesting options for those who have problems with morale penalities cause of filth/elements.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 09:47:23 AM
If we do anything with outdoorsman, adding clothing filth seems to break the theme. I've always thought it could plausdibly affect comfort in slightly chilly/warm weather maybe.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: survivornaginata on September 08, 2016, 10:02:20 AM
If we do anything with outdoorsman, adding clothing filth seems to break the theme. I've always thought it could plausdibly affect comfort in slightly chilly/warm weather maybe.
well i guess you are right-i presume outdoorsman would be more accostomed to filth from nature and not zombies.

suggestion about comfort lvls about temaprature is great.i would seriously consider choosing trait which could lessen penalties from warm weather as summer heat is killing me.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 10:16:27 AM
The speed penalty from being chilly is what will most often fuck over underdressed spring starts. Expanding tolerance of temperature could be done by a few different methods.

One is to expand the range of comfortable temperatures by a few degrees in both direction. Ideally only reducing the ranges of warm and chilly, not pushing back the more extreme levels.

Another way is to have it reduce the speed and/or morale penalties by a flat amount OR percentage. Thus you could be chilly but still able to function, or merely not bothered by it if we wanted Outdoorsman to stay a morale-only effect.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Sheb on September 08, 2016, 10:31:15 AM
Just want to pop in to say that I don't really mind most of these features, even the filthy things. Sure, the feature doesn't add much, but it make sense, and add a lower tiear of clothing in your char progression ( Filthy clothe < clean clothes < reinforced cargo pants and practical stuff < Army clothing < Survivor clothing). Zombie clothing wasn't really useful after early game (apart from some piece of valuable gear that are worth fixing/cleaning). I mean, if you had to do laundry for your own clothing, that'd be too much.

Bumping up soap's spawn rate might be a good idea though.

I think a lot of the issues with those tediums chores isn't that they're in the game, but that there is so little automation of them. I think they add to the game by making taking care of your survivor more complex, but there should be a way to get through them with a minimum of keypresses once your character is set up. In the same way that batch-crafting clean water or installing a foodco kitchen buddy make managing thirst trivial, there should be buttons to batch-clean and mend clothings, batch-fix all damaged parts on a car and so on. Also, being able to outsource those tasks to a NPC housekeeper would be good ("Clean and mend all clothings items dropped in this zone").
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 10:39:45 AM
I agree that the idea COULD have merit. The problem is horrible mismangement of its implementation. In game balance terms, pre-existing factors do a better job of making zombie clothes a less than ideal choice.

From a realism perspective, it lacks any realistic effects beyond morale (Mugling is working to unfuck that), and it introduces a lot of logic flaws that counteract the realism gained by making it less realistic. See my current sig in a nutshell. If a "realistic" feature causes as many realism failures as it solves, AND it does not actually improve gameplay or game balance in any meaningful way, then you have fundamentally fucked up.

The other issue is that, unlike a lot of controversial recent features, it is (currently) the only one that is forced on players. Since it doesn't add anything meaningful to the game at present, and doesn't actually make things more realistic overall, the vitriol over this feature is ultimately understandable.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Sheb on September 08, 2016, 11:07:08 AM
I agree that it has a flavor of a WIP, but I think the vitriol is a bit much: it's not really hindering the game.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 11:15:42 AM
Perhaps. Understandable, if not excusable. How excusable it is depends on dev attitude when defending the features, or when vetoing alternative ways to handle it. How did Kevin handle initial opinions and feedback concerning the feature becoming always-on?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: FrankyPlaysGames on September 08, 2016, 07:22:19 PM
This is a good thread.

Sorry to hear about developer conflicts, but regardless I'm happy with the path Cataclysm has walked, minus a few annoyances.

Magazines are awesome, 100 percent. The addition of pouches, ammo belts and even more holsters has been welcome now that melee has been nerfed with the stamina addition.

Boom cranes and jacks are logical to have, but I feel there should be more options for swapping out vehicle parts. I'm all for storing emergency kits in the trunk but, it is the future anyway, why can't there be small ramps in garages that lift the car off the ground, come equipped with standard tools (jacks, wrenches, cranes and welders), and is linked to a console which can operate the machine? It can do things like repairs while still requiring fuel and batteries. Maybe it can even fit parts to the vehicle, bypassing your mechanics skill in substitute for computers?

Clothing I haven't really dealt with as I craft my own clothes regularly. From what I hear, it sounds rather tedious but with further work (and perhaps making it optional) it can be a boon as well as a curse. Morale negatives aside, I like the idea of it influencing infection rate, but what if having smelly clothing made zombies track your scent more poorly?
What if actions influenced how quickly your clothes get dirty? A day of running around town scavenging,  fixing up your deathwagon and eating spaghettios out of a can, sure, I'd imagine you'd be dirty at the end of it. A day reading, listening to music and boiling water you would still be pretty clean.
Does jumping into a river clean your clothes at all currently?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Malaxxor on September 08, 2016, 09:35:03 PM
Does jumping into a river clean your clothes at all currently?

Not that I know of, unfortunately. This is only a testament to the poor implementation of dirty clothes, however. I'm a really big fan of a more 'believable'/'realistic' approach to Cata, but as others have already pointed out, this mechanic is seriously flawed.

That said, I think that quite a lot of 'realistic' mechanics can (and should!) be implemented in the game, but only if they have a gameplay reason to be there. Rivet and random_dragon already brought up a few read-worthy points about the dirty clothing mechanics and I wholeheartedly agree with them in that mechanics should have a reason to be included. Unfortunately, filthy clothing in its current state doesn't have such a reason, as moral is a pretty negliable mechanic all by itself, so everything whose only effect is a change in morale is pretty much providing nothing to the game.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 08, 2016, 09:50:50 PM
Well, this is a clusterfuck. As with the idea of filthy clothing in general, it's all in implementation. And currently the implementation, and fixing it, are all royally fucked at the moment.

There are three PRs at the moment affecting it. Coolthulhu has one that will shift the content to only existing in a mod, Mugling has one changing assorted code to make the feature suck less, and DangerNoodle is implementing an opposing trait to Squeamish.

I would assume that all three PRs might interfere with each other. This divided approach on how to implement it is what make the feature so pitiful to begin with, and now it'll likely delay unfucking the feature further until all three of them sort that out.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: xironfistx on September 09, 2016, 02:32:54 AM
id rather see rifling being a thing with improvised firearms than this whole dirty clothes clusterfuck.
how do the fuck a damm diver watch is dirty..
just put it under a stream of water to clean it,but noo..
you need soap,which is hard to find,expensive to make and really useless for anything else.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Findulidas on September 09, 2016, 07:15:11 AM
This is all assuming that the river is made out of decently clean water, in my experience they really arent. Likewise cleaning your clothes in just riverwater wont clean them, but make them dirty again. So naturally I think that argument is weak. The problem with cleaning is that as it is now it is just boring and didnt need to be added in the first place. Maybe the only statement I agreed with on OP's post.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Grandpuh Ty on September 09, 2016, 11:51:18 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/Wkhpdkz.gif)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: FrankyPlaysGames on September 09, 2016, 02:29:43 PM
This is all assuming that the river is made out of decently clean water, in my experience they really arent. Likewise cleaning your clothes in just riverwater wont clean them, but make them dirty again. So naturally I think that argument is weak. The problem with cleaning is that as it is now it is just boring and didnt need to be added in the first place. Maybe the only statement I agreed with on OP's post.
My mother washed her clothes in Guatemala using the river, and showered using a waterfall.
Granted, she had a washboard to scrub out stains in her clothes, but no soap. Again, that's Guatemalan rivers as opposed to New England, but it's not implausible. I don't see how you'd get dirtier jumping in the river, swamps I can understand, but not rivers.

All-in-all though, yeah, cleaning clothes isn't fun and provides almost no benefit at all.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Taberone on September 09, 2016, 02:45:44 PM
Filthy clothes aren't too much as a bother as the majority of zombie clothing is things like torn up shirts and underwear, and zombie clothing always clutters the screen when I hit V to view all items around me and I have to cycle through several dozen clothes. With the (filthy) part being added to the clothes, I can filter out all of the clothing drops by zombies. Other realism nerfs aren't too bothering since I've never gotten my characters far enough to witness things like boom cranes. The only realism nerf that bothers me so far is the fact that it takes several seconds to wield something if you don't have a holster/shoulder strap/sheath/scabbard/etc, which often gets me killed or crippled. It doesn't help that if you get attacked while equipping something, theres no "You were hurt! Stop equipping item? Y/N" prompt, unlike when you get hurt while butchering/waiting/reading.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Sheb on September 09, 2016, 04:23:32 PM
This is all assuming that the river is made out of decently clean water, in my experience they really arent. Likewise cleaning your clothes in just riverwater wont clean them, but make them dirty again. So naturally I think that argument is weak. The problem with cleaning is that as it is now it is just boring and didnt need to be added in the first place. Maybe the only statement I agreed with on OP's post.
My mother washed her clothes in Guatemala using the river, and showered using a waterfall.
Granted, she had a washboard to scrub out stains in her clothes, but no soap. Again, that's Guatemalan rivers as opposed to New England, but it's not implausible. I don't see how you'd get dirtier jumping in the river, swamps I can understand, but not rivers.

All-in-all though, yeah, cleaning clothes isn't fun and provides almost no benefit at all.

Well, in game at the moment filthy clothes aren't simply dirty clothes, they're the clothing of zombies that soaked for days in blood and rotten flesh.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 09, 2016, 05:04:03 PM
Filthy clothes aren't too much as a bother as the majority of zombie clothing is things like torn up shirts and underwear

This is the main problem I have with the filthy clothes thing. The random damage, and general of decent drops, will already balance the player against bothering with zombie clothing.

A morale penalty is a pointless addition to that, and the hassle of cleaning it is disproportionately high compared to what you gain in doing so, especially compared to the effort needed to repair it versus the risk of losing the item entirely if you don't fix it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: FrankyPlaysGames on September 09, 2016, 05:18:50 PM
When the addition of dirty and filthy clothes were first encountered by me very early on, I was actually kind of excited. I started crafting two pairs of clothing sets, since I assumed that (low skilled) combat and butchering would bloody up my body.
I actually moved all the dressers in the house to my main bedroom so I could organize them all into days for my regime, i.e take off my dirty clothes and put them in a wash area, then put on the entire set I left in the dresser, nice and clean.
Boy, was I disappointed.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Beanzy on September 09, 2016, 07:26:21 PM
As someone who started a game after not having played for months, this is my opinion on the new features.

1) Gun magazines: I think these are a good addition to the game. Different magazine sizes add a new dynamic to playing with firearms and make say, looting a STANAG drum magazine, add more excitement to searching for guns.

2) Book/recipe changes: A very welcome change; it's great not having to reread a book unpteen times just to learn a specific recipe.

3) Jacks/Boom lift: I don't like this change. While the scissor and bottle jack are relatively unobtrusive, the vehicle mounted lifts are a pain in the ass to use and just add needless busywork if you need to replace a tire on your deathmobile. I think a system based on mechanics skill, instead of tiers of jacks, should be the gateway that restricts creating op vehicles.

4) Filthiness: I don't see what this is supposed to add to the game. IMO filthy clothes should just be abstracted as having less clothing drop from zombies (i.e. the player just naturally ignores ruined clothing), the fact that these clothes are already damaged and that tailoring is now harder than before should be barrier enough for using clothes dropped by zombies.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 10, 2016, 01:24:54 AM
I always just debug my strength to the required level to work on my car instead of using boom cranes because I don't know how those things work.

Also filthiness is gone yay, now zombie clothes have an actual use.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Wally-kun on September 10, 2016, 01:33:08 AM
"Ruined" is a strong word. One that is highly, highly overused.

Filthy clothes and lifting limits for vehicles don't "ruin" anything. They're just annoying and get in the player's way. Neither of which are a good thing.

But "ruined?" Quit being so dramatic.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheWumpus on September 10, 2016, 03:07:14 AM
And to think I wanted to petition to make working on vehicles MORE complicated, requiring a vast array of specialty tools, take longer, have the risk of damage/failure if it's right at your skill level, and implement even more parts (air compressors, air lines, transmissions, differentials, consumable fluids, etc). Sure glad I never got the draft of that off the ground. Of course there would time reductions for being very skilled, good lighting, smooth surfaces, and having access to air tools and wobbly sockets and a whole slew of the other 15 grand worth of shit I roll around the shop.

I guess I just want to share the !!FUN!! that comes with being a real mechanic. Maybe a mod...
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Noctifer on September 10, 2016, 03:22:38 AM
...why can't there be small ramps in garages that lift the car off the ground, come equipped with standard tools (jacks, wrenches, cranes and welders), and is linked to a console which can operate the machine? It can do things like repairs while still requiring fuel and batteries. Maybe it can even fit parts to the vehicle, bypassing your mechanics skill in substitute for computers?...
This, so much this, It would make computer skill something useful for more than stealth B&E.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kedryn on September 10, 2016, 03:50:25 AM
And to think I wanted to petition to make working on vehicles MORE complicated, requiring a vast array of specialty tools, take longer, have the risk of damage/failure if it's right at your skill level, and implement even more parts (air compressors, air lines, transmissions, differentials, consumable fluids, etc). Sure glad I never got the draft of that off the ground. Of course there would time reductions for being very skilled, good lighting, smooth surfaces, and having access to air tools and wobbly sockets and a whole slew of the other 15 grand worth of shit I roll around the shop.

I guess I just want to share the !!FUN!! that comes with being a real mechanic. Maybe a mod...

Oh, wow; I like complicated but that would go too far even for me!

I guess that means my list of mineral deficiencies for plants (with visual hints like purple leaves for phosphorus deficiency or yellow-white on the edges of leaves for nitrogen burn) would not be so helpful after all. And I was really looking forward to a sudden heavy rain after a drought causing my tomatoes, squash and melons to split open too. Or having to put things under my pumpkins during wet seasons to keep the bottoms from molding.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 10, 2016, 04:42:39 AM
After never having played without filthy clothes oh my god it's so much better. You can actually use zombie loot now, it's like a whole new game.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rivet on September 10, 2016, 06:26:57 AM
And to think I wanted to petition to make working on vehicles MORE complicated, requiring a vast array of specialty tools, take longer, have the risk of damage/failure if it's right at your skill level, and implement even more parts (air compressors, air lines, transmissions, differentials, consumable fluids, etc). Sure glad I never got the draft of that off the ground. Of course there would time reductions for being very skilled, good lighting, smooth surfaces, and having access to air tools and wobbly sockets and a whole slew of the other 15 grand worth of shit I roll around the shop.

I guess I just want to share the !!FUN!! that comes with being a real mechanic. Maybe a mod...

(http://i.imgur.com/b2ny89e.gif)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: manoftron on September 10, 2016, 07:29:37 AM
So after a while of not playing, and even longer to touch into vehicles, I decided in this new game to just put a couple frames together, put an electric motor and storage battery on it to power a minifridge. From what I remember, you could just hit 'f' and it would put batteries into the storage battery. Now it won't. Who would change this, what is the procedure now, and why was it changed for gods sake???

EDIT: After changing my google search from 'cataclysm dda reload storage battery' to 'cataclysm dda refile storage battery' I found a reddit thread that asked the same question. Someone answered that question. So, if I have an empty storage battery, I'm just out of luck unless I find another one? I'M TOTALLY NOT VOMITING RIGHT NOW.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Garfink on September 10, 2016, 11:03:25 AM
First post ever!  Have been playing this for a couple of weeks and its a pretty amazing game, reminds me of the original Wasteland I played on the Commodore 64, except its so much more!   I do miss the story in Wasteland that is missing here, but we are rewarded with a huge universe where the stories are made up by the events as you go.  I prefer it this way!

Back on topic, now that the filthy clothes system is gone, the early game is so much better!  I haven't really gotten really far in my 2 weeks so have been stuck in the early game and as a beginner, this change back to how it was is amazing.  Makes the early game less tedious and fun.  As a beginner I have lots of restarts both due to random deaths not knowing what to do, as well as experimentation with the world creation settings (many of which were disasters, either too hard or too easy) and now I am much more likely to continue exploring the world even after my character dies. 

Kudos to an amazing team of developers!  Can't believe its taken this long for me to discover this gem of a game.  I have stopped playing Overwatch and 7 days to die as this is so much more compelling!  (Can't wait for A15 of 7 days though, but that game will forever feel lacking now that I have played this monster!)

Thanks zeds.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on September 10, 2016, 03:47:47 PM
Wasteland was an epic game.

Ever wonder what its like to shot a rocket at a farmer who was training and breeding an army of war rabbits?
Ever want to shoot first and ask why your target was in a wheelcahair later?
Ever want to get stuck in san diego?

well, with wasteland, you can
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Khellen on September 10, 2016, 06:40:24 PM
Electric motors were buffed, not nerfed. Especially the weaker ones, which got a big efficiency boost.

Maybe in the most technical of senses, Electric Vehicles in general of have definitely been heavily nerfed though as some design choices that once were effectively limitless in drive times struggle to make it through a 12 hour drive without needing to recharge batteries for 4-7 days depending on weather.
Its most certainly not limited to problems with deathmobiles either, since trying to make a solar powered bike with one cargo space nets the same effect without the ability to just slap more solar panels on it.

The only upcoming feature that I really find unbearably realistic is the vitamins tracking on food. Even without the penalties being applied on the debuffs the changes on these lines made it almost impossible to get positive health effects without a leukocyte breeder implant and if any penalties did start being added on those debuffs it would certainly make vitamins effectively mandatory for survivors to get their hands on and start using.

Guns getting magazines made me stop looking at non-laser/arrow based ranged weapons all-together due to the scarcity of magazines when it was implemented but I believe that's been mostly addressed.

NPCs requiring food and water makes sense, but now you have to baby sit them. I haven't been to the Refugee Center since that hit but if it effects those NPCs too there's not much point in having them turned on at all then since they'll all starve to death before you can do much with them.

The book recipe learning nerf is inconsequential to my playstyle but probably is a headache for nomadic players.

Filthiness is annoying but one bar of soap will probably cover every piece of clothing you'll ever wear that gets directly taken from a zombie, if this got expanded on I'd probably dislike it far more.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: John Candlebury on September 11, 2016, 12:32:45 AM
Electric motors were buffed, not nerfed. Especially the weaker ones, which got a big efficiency boost.
NPCs requiring food and water makes sense, but now you have to baby sit them. I haven't been to the Refugee Center since that hit but if it effects those NPCs too there's not much point in having them turned on at all then since they'll all starve to death before you can do much with them.

Last I knew, only your followers need to eat, and even they can't starve, they just get increasingly bad debuffs and you lose reputation with them.

Not having to babysit them would be nice, but I dont find their current state too annoying, just give them a lot of water and canned food once in awhile.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 11, 2016, 03:07:09 AM
Um. What the fuck. I thought a certain star-spawn moved the filthy clothing fuckup to a mod? Why is Squeamish still in mainline?

Scratch that, filthy clothes still show up in vanilla. Now where'd I put my steamboat... -_-
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 11, 2016, 03:09:29 AM
They don't for me. You must be playing a version that's too old.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 11, 2016, 03:12:01 AM
I am using the latest Windows graphical build, 5464. ಠ_ಠ
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Noctifer on September 11, 2016, 03:14:37 AM
I am using the latest Windows graphical build, 5464. ಠ_ಠ
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/18233
They did move it, dunno about the trait.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 11, 2016, 03:24:14 AM
Yes, I KNOW for fucks sake. That's why I'm not sure why the fuck these features are re-appearing despite my having not enabled Filthy Clothing mod. >_>
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 11, 2016, 03:30:31 AM
Try updating your build with the launcher if you have a character you care about. I could show you screenshots of non-filthy zombie clothes, I have no idea why it's not working for you.

The only thing that could've happened is if you downloaded a build that was 1 or 2 builds before the build that removed filthiness and the time gap was so narrow that it was hard.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 11, 2016, 03:49:00 AM
Wait a minute. Yes, Squeamish is still in vanilla. But it seems that picking it for shits and giggles is why the clothing suddenly showed up filthy.

The PR Noctifier linked me to has an issue mentioned, apparently they did the same thing as I did and trial-and-error'd the fucking solution out of it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheWumpus on September 11, 2016, 04:39:51 AM
And to think I wanted to petition to make working on vehicles MORE complicated, requiring a vast array of specialty tools, take longer, have the risk of damage/failure if it's right at your skill level, and implement even more parts (air compressors, air lines, transmissions, differentials, consumable fluids, etc). Sure glad I never got the draft of that off the ground. Of course there would time reductions for being very skilled, good lighting, smooth surfaces, and having access to air tools and wobbly sockets and a whole slew of the other 15 grand worth of shit I roll around the shop.

I guess I just want to share the !!FUN!! that comes with being a real mechanic. Maybe a mod...

(click to show/hide)

1. Top Kek
2. Are vehicle interactions (time, tool requirements) hard coded? I've managed to track down the parts jsons with corresponding skills needed, but if I did happen to want to make such a mod would it be possible without learning C++ and compiling my own executable?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: DarkandStar on September 11, 2016, 07:52:04 AM
I keep seeing all these 'Ew magazines' and 'Screw the filthyness system' posts flying around. My question is, the hell else are you here for? I don't know what you guys want if not these "crippling" realism aspects, because that's why I play Cata dda, and other roguelikes. For the realism, for these exact nerfs that all of you are whining about. I wouldn't be entirely lying to say i'd love a nail growth and trimming mechanic installed. I wouldn't be lying at all to say I wouldn't fault the game for having it. You all seem to forget you're playing an apocalyptic survival game.

The more nerfs they add, the better. That's my two-cents.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 11, 2016, 08:17:55 AM
Um. What the fuck. I thought a certain star-spawn moved the filthy clothing fuckup to a mod? Why is Squeamish still in mainline?

It's the filthy morale penalty.
You can still pick squeamish and it will forbid wearing things. Just that if you don't, you don't get any penalties.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Garfink on September 11, 2016, 08:28:51 AM
Wasteland was an epic game.

Ever wonder what its like to shot a rocket at a farmer who was training and breeding an army of war rabbits?
Ever want to shoot first and ask why your target was in a wheelcahair later?
Ever want to get stuck in san diego?

well, with wasteland, you can

Dude, we are revealing our ages!  As long as we are reminiscing let us see if you remember these references and where they are found in the game:

Christina
Three breasted whore
URABUTLN

Can't believe is 30 years old now!  Games haven't really come a very long way....  they peaked rather early on.  My character in Cataclysm is called Snake Vargus btw.

(As an aside:  you seem the person to ask:  What do people mean when they say in the context of spawns:  dynamic vs horde????  I don't know what they are referring to when they say horde?  is that the classic zombie mode in the options menu?  Also with your reimagining mod, is it compatible with the other mods (the ones in the launcher?), what mod list do you play with active in your playthroughs?)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: X-PLODE on September 11, 2016, 09:08:08 AM
What do people mean when they say in the context of spawns:  dynamic vs horde????  I don't know what they are referring to when they say horde?
Dynamic Spawn : no zombies spawned at world generation, they appear as you play.
If i remember correctly dynamic has some bugs with zombies spawning on top of each other or other shenanigans and giving you a debug message.

Static Spawn : all zombies spawn on world generation, much easier to clear out maps.

Horde On/Off : spawns mobs of zombies when you get close to a spawnpoint or you do something that attracts them like lots of noise/light, they show as a blinking 'Z' in the worldmap menu.
Can be a handful to a dozen for each 'Z', but the entire horde could be 20+ sectors with a dozen or more in each sector ending up with a horde of hundreds and sometimes a thousand zombies.


Wildlife can't be turned off in options, only with a mod that disables it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Findulidas on September 11, 2016, 01:56:54 PM
What do people mean when they say in the context of spawns:  dynamic vs horde????  I don't know what they are referring to when they say horde?
Dynamic Spawn : no zombies spawned at world generation, they appear as you play.
If i remember correctly dynamic has some bugs with zombies spawning on top of each other or other shenanigans and giving you a debug message.

Static Spawn : all zombies spawn on world generation, much easier to clear out maps.

Horde On/Off : spawns mobs of zombies when you get close to a spawnpoint or you do something that attracts them like lots of noise/light, they show as a blinking 'Z' in the worldmap menu.
Can be a handful to a dozen for each 'Z', but the entire horde could be 20+ sectors with a dozen or more in each sector ending up with a horde of hundreds and sometimes a thousand zombies.


Wildlife can't be turned off in options, only with a mod that disables it.

Yeah the horde spawns in dynamic can be a bit wonky, I had a huge horde in a perfect cicle spawning in the middle of a huge city. Kept having loads of those errors of zombies already being where it wanted to spawn some. I ended up throw a molotov on a building pretty close to them and just watched them all crawl to their too stupid to live death.

Wish I could have dynamic horde spawns with a very low spawn rate and a high static one at the same time. That would probably be quite good.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 11, 2016, 04:55:54 PM
Um. What the fuck. I thought a certain star-spawn moved the filthy clothing fuckup to a mod? Why is Squeamish still in mainline?

It's the filthy morale penalty.
You can still pick squeamish and it will forbid wearing things. Just that if you don't, you don't get any penalties.

Ah, odd. Am I the only one that got confused as all hell from seeing filth mechanics abruptly reappear on picking that trait? -_-
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Garfink on September 11, 2016, 05:54:25 PM
What do people mean when they say in the context of spawns:  dynamic vs horde????  I don't know what they are referring to when they say horde?
Dynamic Spawn : no zombies spawned at world generation, they appear as you play.
If i remember correctly dynamic has some bugs with zombies spawning on top of each other or other shenanigans and giving you a debug message.

Static Spawn : all zombies spawn on world generation, much easier to clear out maps.

Horde On/Off : spawns mobs of zombies when you get close to a spawnpoint or you do something that attracts them like lots of noise/light, they show as a blinking 'Z' in the worldmap menu.
Can be a handful to a dozen for each 'Z', but the entire horde could be 20+ sectors with a dozen or more in each sector ending up with a horde of hundreds and sometimes a thousand zombies.


Wildlife can't be turned off in options, only with a mod that disables it.

I must be blind.  Where is this hordes on/off switch located?  Can't find it for the life of me. o_O
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: survivornaginata on September 11, 2016, 07:27:42 PM

Quote
I must be blind.  Where is this hordes on/off switch located?  Can't find it for the life of me. o_O
same.i thought its only about dinamic spawn option but i now and then encounter people talking about horde option...
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Garfink on September 11, 2016, 08:17:01 PM
Ya, and to make it even more confusing there isn't even an option call dynamic spawn either, there is only static & something called "wandering". 
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 11, 2016, 08:18:09 PM
Wander Spawns is dynamic spawns. Wander spawns causes big blobs of zombies to spawn in towns and then wander out of them randomly. They can be attracted by noise and killed.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: survivornaginata on September 11, 2016, 08:21:49 PM
Wander Spawns is dynamic spawns. Wander spawns causes big blobs of zombies to spawn in towns and then wander out of them randomly. They can be attracted by noise and killed.
so are those hordes or there is another horde option to enable/disable?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Garfink on September 11, 2016, 08:22:08 PM
Wander Spawns is dynamic spawns. Wander spawns causes big blobs of zombies to spawn in towns and then wander out of them randomly. They can be attracted by noise and killed.

Okay, that is clear.  Now can you tell me what is "Hordes"?  (thanks)

While I am at it:  Should I leave npcs off?  I can confirm with ease that if you have an NPC in your party following you around, the game will CTD.  What if I don't ever let them join my party?  Will that cause problems? 
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 11, 2016, 08:25:40 PM
NPCs don't crash my game, though that's because I never saw a reason to invite them to my party, so that should work for you.

I recommend turning on both static and random NPCs at the default (or slightly higher than default) percentages. They're pretty rare and can do some neat stuff.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Malaxxor on September 11, 2016, 08:40:29 PM
Wander Spawns is dynamic spawns. Wander spawns causes big blobs of zombies to spawn in towns and then wander out of them randomly. They can be attracted by noise and killed.

I'm PRETTY sure that this is wrong. Essentially, there are two options regarding zombie spawning: Dynamic and static.

In static mode (the default) zombies are generated once at the start of the game. Plain and simple.

Dynamic spawn mode makes zombies spawn during game time, depending on factors like the noise you make. That means you can never 'clean' an area as new zombies will spawn when you make noise.

Wander spawn - also called 'hordes' - is something different, and only affects whether there are hordes of zombies roamning the countryside or not.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 11, 2016, 08:50:25 PM
Dynamic Spawns don't exist in the latest experimentals, it's only static and wander spawns.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Malaxxor on September 11, 2016, 09:20:21 PM
I just checked on the latest experimental, and the option for dynamic spawn is still there. Under World Options -> Static Spawn = Yes/No

'Static Spawn = No' obviously being Dynamic Spawn.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on September 11, 2016, 10:15:26 PM
Still need to install most recent build. Last time I played was January, I think??

Magazines sounds like I get the option to spend more time loading up spare mags before I head out, or spend time reloading during skirmishes. Reload times is definitely always going to be a penalty somewhere along the way, but it is nice to have some control over when this need arises. Will add to this later if live gameplay provides further insight, but this seems to be decently balanced in terms of advantages/drawbacks it adds.

Filthy clothes: I always found zombie clothing to be so heavily damaged in the past, that I either piled it on to take singular hits/destroy while I found real clothes worth salvaging... or I cut it up into rags for bandaging and tailoring materials immediately. tl;dr my main incentives for using zombie clothing was stopgap or scraps. Making it dirty sounds redundant, as I am already discouraged from making zombie clothes my 'main' wardrobe. I would consider the current dirty clothes mechanic a 'nerf' for an already underpowered source of armour.

Again, will add to this when I get to see how it all handles - whoops, looks like dirty clothes has been removed already. Good! Bring on the revisions and more refined ideas!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Garfink on September 12, 2016, 06:21:47 AM
I just checked on the latest experimental, and the option for dynamic spawn is still there. Under World Options -> Static Spawn = Yes/No

'Static Spawn = No' obviously being Dynamic Spawn.

So No is Dynamic Spawn?  So how is that different from Wandering spawn? 

Maybe I will ask the question in a different way:

What I want is a game where there are zombies already in cities (I don't care how these are spawned really) but after I clear the area of zombies I prefer a short period of respite from zombies in the area but in time (random) roaming bands of zombies (large and small) will randomly wander through the said area making it slightly risky returning to a supposedly safe area.  I want these roaming bands to be randomly spawned (hopefully I can adjust their size range somewhere) and move in a direction where they are most likely attracted, either light, scent, movement and sound created by me or something else like wildlife/car alarms/explosions in the distant. 

What I don't want is sound actually spawning the zombies as that is retarded, sound should attract zombies that were spawned already by other means. 

What settings should I have in my game to closely achieve this as possible? I am using the latest experimental.  By settings I mean spawn rates, spawn settings, mods etc.



(at the moment I am testing spawn rate at 1.0, loot spawn 0.75, static spawn=on and wandering spawn=on, PK reimagining, and the start is pretty hard, 2 survivors died on their first raid into town, one to a moose and the other time, died to spiders that didn't spawn in a basement but in the actual house, never seen that before, must be PK mod that is doing that., so far pretty darn hard with the crappy loot drops, will test more before adjusting it though, just need that lucky break.... I have city sizes at 6 to compensate for the lower loot drops... doesn't help that I play with random characters allowing only 1 adjustment.

In the game with the spiders, I had a mansion next to the evac center and I thought, "yes!".... but damn it, it was the worst mansion in the world with no loot aside from some food and lots of books, the latter of which wasn't doing me any good so early in the game.)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Sheb on September 12, 2016, 10:35:13 AM
Are hordes finite in number? Aka, they'll wander in, but I can exterminate a horde and be done with it?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on September 12, 2016, 11:22:24 AM
If you have static spawn then you will eventually kill every single zombie in a horde.

Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Malaxxor on September 12, 2016, 11:54:29 AM
I just checked on the latest experimental, and the option for dynamic spawn is still there. Under World Options -> Static Spawn = Yes/No

'Static Spawn = No' obviously being Dynamic Spawn.

Maybe I will ask the question in a different way:

What I want is a game where there are zombies already in cities (I don't care how these are spawned really) but after I clear the area of zombies I prefer a short period of respite from zombies in the area but in time (random) roaming bands of zombies (large and small) will randomly wander through the said area making it slightly risky returning to a supposedly safe area.  I want these roaming bands to be randomly spawned (hopefully I can adjust their size range somewhere) and move in a direction where they are most likely attracted, either light, scent, movement and sound created by me or something else like wildlife/car alarms/explosions in the distant. 

What I don't want is sound actually spawning the zombies as that is retarded, sound should attract zombies that were spawned already by other means. 

What settings should I have in my game to closely achieve this as possible? I am using the latest experimental.  By settings I mean spawn rates, spawn settings, mods etc.

That would be a setting with Static Spawn and Hordes, or more technically, both 'Static Spawn' and 'Wander Spawns' options need to be set to 'Yes'.

The only problem I see is that there is no 'grace period' after (or even before) you manage to clear an area from zombies. Hordes WILL investigate any source of sound, no matter if there are already zombies in that area or not. This basically means that early game can be extremely hard, due to the masses of zombies that tend to aggregate in cities. But once you manage to clear an area, it becomes reasonably save, but not completely, as new hordes can always wander in.

However, as far as I know, hordes are finite, which means they can be exterminated too, with enough effort.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: X-PLODE on September 12, 2016, 12:19:13 PM
If you have static spawn then you will eventually kill every single zombie in a horde.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3227/2846721267_9761f3c154_o.jpg)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Sheb on September 12, 2016, 12:54:28 PM
If you have static spawn then you will eventually kill every single zombie in a horde.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3227/2846721267_9761f3c154_o.jpg)

??
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 13, 2016, 01:06:00 AM
Yeah... he's right. You can kill all of the zombies if you use static spawns.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 13, 2016, 05:17:38 AM
Okay, I wondered why there was a sudden fuss about metric volume when volume units have always been a quarter or a liter.

I did not know that some chucklefuck actually changed the volume unit to be individual milliliters.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Voqar on September 13, 2016, 05:29:12 AM
I agree with a lot of what the OP is saying and I've written about it around here plenty.

Even simple things like the change to the book reading UI sometimes leave me thinking "WTF?"  I have a fertile imagination and I can't remotely imagine why there needed to be a popup when reading so somebody could elect to read one chunk of a book (vs just reading and hitting numpad).  I can't imagine a whole lot of people wanted this and the number of people adversely affected by this has to be much larger.  Not to mention, if reading must have a popup and two step process, at least make the hotkey for reading the whole book be "R" so we can spam "R+R" and not hit the almost never used number keys.

There's a good thread here about the multitudes of things about this game that are unrealistic - and that's fine  it's a GAME and IMO, gameplay and fun should always come first.  Hints and suggestions of realism are great and the way this game usually abstracts realism tends to work amazingly well.  I'd agree that some recent changes - what I call selective realism - have hurt more than helped the game's gameplay and fun factor.  Making one of many game systems hyper-realistic vs the normal abstraction level just adds tedium for no good reason.  Time sink != challenge.  Ever.

A lot of *great* things have been added to the game over the same time span too.

I think my number one problem in all of this is that it's supposed to be an "experimental" thing and experiments CAN fail.  The things that get jammed in that many reply negatively to never get removed.  At worst things that end up being disliked by 50% or more of players could/should be made into mods or optional (if possible, which isn't always feasible).

I'm a developer too and even when I have a good idea what my people want, they sometimes don't like what ends up after coding, and I have to fine tune it, change it, figure out what they really thought they wanted, deactivate it til they pull their heads out, or remove it.  Life isn't perfect and as highly as I think of my own coding, I'm not perfect.  As a dev you need to have thick enough skin to be able to handle criticism of your work and be ready to change or scrap it sometimes.  When someone doesn't like my code I can't just grab my toys and go home, I have to deal.

In a situation like this game where there are seemingly a lot of dev hands in the pie and a lot of things getting thrown in, there's a good chance some things won't fit - and it should be ok to remove those things rather than just say, oh well, so and so put a lot of effort into this and we're keeping it even if it sucks.  Experimental/alpha/dev whatever you want to call it should be about iterating and figuring out what works.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 13, 2016, 05:56:33 AM
Even simple things like the change to the book reading UI sometimes leave me thinking "WTF?"

Book reading UI changes were necessary for some extra features, such as reading to NPCs. No one suggested on how to improve them, so the binds and structure were not changed since that time.

Quote
I think my number one problem in all of this is that it's supposed to be an "experimental" thing and experiments CAN fail.

DDA has a problem with this. This has been joked about, for example, by saying that DDA development process is the opposite of Dungeon Crawl's.
It is getting better (slowly) as we have managed to remove some of the outdated features and "features", but it's still not quite where it should be.
Moving filthy morale to a mod was a precedent that may lead to some much needed cutting down on things most people don't like.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Sheb on September 13, 2016, 06:34:20 AM
I'd be careful about "stuff people don't like". It seems for a lot of things there is very vocal minority hating the more "toenail trimming" approach, but being very vocal and assuming it has the majority behind it. Of all the issues raised with the OP, the only one that didn't end up having broad support was filthy clothing.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 13, 2016, 06:49:26 AM
Of all the issues raised with the OP, the only one that didn't end up having broad support was filthy clothing.

Boom cranes got shat on pretty hard.
Book recipe learning change opinions varied from "It sucks. Why is it a thing?" through "I don't mind, it changes nothing" to rare "Makes sense and changes nothing notable gameplay wise".
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 13, 2016, 07:05:45 AM
Book recipe learning change opinions varied from "It sucks. Why is it a thing?" through "I don't mind, it changes nothing" to rare "Makes sense and changes nothing notable gameplay wise".

Don't forget the probably one-in-a-million "no more players using Arcana mod forgetting to hoard the books" opinion. XP
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 13, 2016, 07:17:17 AM
one-in-a-million

That rounds to 0
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 13, 2016, 07:29:48 AM
That rounds to 0

;w;

To quote What if?

(http://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/151/bignumbers.png)

Wow it honestly looks awful when not on the proper background the articles use.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Garfink on September 13, 2016, 07:55:22 AM
Okay, I wondered why there was a sudden fuss about metric volume when volume units have always been a quarter or a liter.

I did not know that some chucklefuck actually changed the volume unit to be individual milliliters.

Yeah, the same chucklefuck still haven't fixed the fact that the now huge numbers don't fit on the interface any more.  Damn man, do these guys do even the most basic testing before the changes?  Why don't they go add features that are actually new rather then messing around with stuff that wasn't broken in the first place!

Having said all that, thanks to the same chucklefuck for putting in the effort though.  So thanks.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Sheb on September 13, 2016, 09:20:02 AM
Of all the issues raised with the OP, the only one that didn't end up having broad support was filthy clothing.

Boom cranes got shat on pretty hard.
Book recipe learning change opinions varied from "It sucks. Why is it a thing?" through "I don't mind, it changes nothing" to rare "Makes sense and changes nothing notable gameplay wise".

Right, I forgot boomcranes, probably because I never used them so far IG. Well, for the record, I like the book change.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Snaaty on September 13, 2016, 03:30:42 PM
Regarding the filthy clothing: I believe it is a good mechanic. It creates an incentive to not wear that stuff (e.g. in one of m recent games after running around in the cold and wet in filthy clothing was so demoralized I couldn't even craft stuff). So I don't really get all the hate the addition has been getting. The soap spawn is up already and whats next is that you don't actually need clean water to clean the clothes but a regular toilet or pond or pool will do.

Lategame survivors aren't going to bother with zombie-dropped clothing anyway and for earlygame survivors it simply makes the game a little bit harder. I don't get why it would bother anyone that much to actually loot houses for clothing. Maybe instead increasing the regular clothes spawn in buildings should be increased too.

The other "issues" that OP has mentioned are all features that I appreciate.

An aggressive rant-thread like this one is also bound to attract those people that either strongly agree or disagree with the issue in the original post, a large part of the playerbase that doesn't have apronounced opinion on it (and therefore is indifferent or in favor of the features) won't post here.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Malaxxor on September 13, 2016, 04:23:43 PM
Regarding the filthy clothing: I believe it is a good mechanic. It creates an incentive to not wear that stuff (e.g. in one of m recent games after running around in the cold and wet in filthy clothing was so demoralized I couldn't even craft stuff). So I don't really get all the hate the addition has been getting. The soap spawn is up already and whats next is that you don't actually need clean water to clean the clothes but a regular toilet or pond or pool will do.

Lategame survivors aren't going to bother with zombie-dropped clothing anyway and for earlygame survivors it simply makes the game a little bit harder. I don't get why it would bother anyone that much to actually loot houses for clothing. Maybe instead increasing the regular clothes spawn in buildings should be increased too.

The other "issues" that OP has mentioned are all features that I appreciate.

An aggressive rant-thread like this one is also bound to attract those people that either strongly agree or disagree with the issue in the original post, a large part of the playerbase that doesn't have apronounced opinion on it (and therefore is indifferent or in favor of the features) won't post here.

The simple question you have to ask yourself is that: what does it add to the gameplay?

And the answer is: nothing.

Clothing dropped by zombies is already balanced through the condition you find it in. Not that it would even NEED balancing, in my opinion, as you can find perfectly clean and usable clothing in pretty much every house as you already noticed.

It's not that the idea of having filthy clothing in game is bad. Quite the contrary, I think that it would actually add another, interesting layer to the game. But the way it was implemented was simply bad.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on September 13, 2016, 06:14:31 PM
It shouldn't even be soap but laundry detergent. And any washboard is pointless, especially with modern detergents, although I might understand that its activation is needed to start the process. Ideally the laundry formula should be like:

1. Dirty clothing items (note their total volume)
2. Nearby water source. OR. Laundry volume + 5L of water.
3. 5ml of laundry detergent per 1L of water used, rounded up to nearest liter.
4. Laundry volume x2 more water for rinsing. (at minimum)
5. 30 minutes of time.

Forced infinite water source requirement would cut down the math, but then you couldn't use your water tanks even if you wanted to. I'm still debating internally if fire source (hot water) should be necessary. Feels like a PITA. I would also change the washboard activation to laundry detergent activation.

Or, the entire process could be its own mechanic.

Hit key to start doing laundry (don't laugh just yet)
A window opens. A list of all carried, worn and nearby dirty clothing items is presented.
Select items to clean.
The window displays the required amount of water and laundry detergent.

Now here's something to ponder: Such laundry framework might have use in other manual tasks. Replace laundry and detergent with _______. I mean we're talking about treating multiple objects of varying size and shape in one go. It might have future potential.

Bulk sewing operations? Tailoring difficulty might be an issue, unless we only allow operations that have 0% chance to fail.

Bulk vehicle repairs? Select parts to repair. Select all by default but exclude parts that the player cannot repair with available skills or tools. Display duration and needed charges for each part. Max out at 12 hours, or have the ability to interrupt.

Car washing + waxing based on vehicle tile count? A shiny spotless car could be part of the Stylish trait. 8D
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: FrankyPlaysGames on September 13, 2016, 07:22:49 PM
What if we just made a reloadable clothes washing machine/board/bucket? Add a recipe for cleaning water that requires soap or detergent and reload the item that cleans with the soapy water?

Also add a new CBM, washboard abs that gives you +1 strength and a tool to wash your clothes.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Ly on September 13, 2016, 07:49:54 PM
Quote
It shouldn't even be soap but laundry detergent. And any washboard is pointless, especially with modern detergents, although I might understand that its activation is needed to start the process. Ideally the laundry formula should be like:

1. Dirty clothing items (note their total volume)
2. Nearby water source. OR. Laundry volume + 5L of water.
3. 5ml of laundry detergent per 1L of water used, rounded up to nearest liter.
4. Laundry volume x2 more water for rinsing. (at minimum)
5. 30 minutes of time.

Forced infinite water source requirement would cut down the math, but then you couldn't use your water tanks even if you wanted to. I'm still debating internally if fire source (hot water) should be necessary. Feels like a PITA. I would also change the washboard activation to laundry detergent activation.

I think you guys debating the requisite volumes of detergent, etc, seem to be either trolling or missing the point entirely.

Quote
What if we just made a reloadable clothes washing machine/board/bucket? Add a recipe for cleaning water that requires soap or detergent and reload the item that cleans with the soapy water?

Or how about we drop the whole idea of virtual laundry altogether? I'd imagine most people do more than enough laundry in their actual lives to want to spend time doing it in their videogames too.

It was an objectively bad idea, and now it's gone, and it's not coming back, so just forget about it already.


Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on September 13, 2016, 08:03:32 PM
I want it back :(

The added colour made sorting zombie loot much easier.

The removal sucks. It makes my gameplay slower.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Beanzy on September 13, 2016, 08:09:24 PM
I want it back :(

The added colour made sorting zombie loot much easier.

The removal sucks. It makes my gameplay slower.

You are using the advanced inventory function, right?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on September 13, 2016, 08:11:35 PM
Not when i loot a single zombie.

edit : actually i do if i am holding a vehicle ment as a container.

But yes i do.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: deoxy on September 13, 2016, 09:30:41 PM
Also add a new CBM, washboard abs that gives you +1 strength and a tool to wash your clothes.

The whole filthy clothes mechanic MESS was worth it, just for this quote.

:-)

Boom cranes got shat on pretty hard.

The concept is good - engines are FAR too heavy and massive (not exactly the same thing) for a person to just pick up and put exactly where they need to go, barring significant levels or super-human strength (like, maybe 50 or something).

The implementation seems poor, but that could be improved.

That you need one to replace a wheel on a very large vehicle, yeah, that's a problem.  Ever see a crane, any kind of large RV, or a backhoe?  They all have ways to lift their own wheels off the ground (for stability purposes, but the purpose is irrelevant here).  Something like should be easy to implement - in fact, put the same requirements as wheels, and you've got a secondary system that makes wheels replaceable.  Yay?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: John Candlebury on September 14, 2016, 12:10:21 AM
I want it back :(

The added colour made sorting zombie loot much easier.

The removal sucks. It makes my gameplay slower.

You can filter clothing out from the V menu.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 14, 2016, 01:30:58 AM
The removal sucks. It makes my gameplay slower.

Your gameplay sucks.

Also, just add it to the modlist.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on September 14, 2016, 01:15:48 PM
Its a mod now? Is someone planning to work on it ?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 14, 2016, 01:59:10 PM
No, it was just moved away to mods since the alternative was tanking it or total removal.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: FrankyPlaysGames on September 14, 2016, 05:12:55 PM
Well, that was that. I was fine with dirty clothing as a concept but I'm opting out until it adds something to the experience.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 14, 2016, 05:19:37 PM
I would've been fine with it, if it had any contribution to game balance that other game mechanics don't already add. See the common-sense point already mentioned by me as well as others, random item condition makes a morale penalty a pointless triviality.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zireael on September 14, 2016, 05:38:06 PM
why can't there be small ramps in garages that lift the car off the ground, come equipped with standard tools (jacks, wrenches, cranes and welders), and is linked to a console which can operate the machine? It can do things like repairs while still requiring fuel and batteries. Maybe it can even fit parts to the vehicle, bypassing your mechanics skill in substitute for computers?

That's a very good idea.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: deoxy on September 14, 2016, 08:18:09 PM
why can't there be small ramps in garages that lift the car off the ground, come equipped with standard tools (jacks, wrenches, cranes and welders), and is linked to a console which can operate the machine? It can do things like repairs while still requiring fuel and batteries. Maybe it can even fit parts to the vehicle, bypassing your mechanics skill in substitute for computers?

That's a very good idea.

Actually, that's a great subset of a great idea - many such things should be workable, as long as you can power them.  Some kind of "connect this generator I made (probably from a frame, an engine, an alternator, and a gas tank) to this structure" functionality would allow something like this, along with working refrigerators, ovens, lights, elevators, and other modern conveniences... until you run out of gas, of course.

Garages in particular could be a nice thing, but disabling certain other structures unless you can power them (mine elevators, sewage plant elevators/computers, and gas station pumps(!) for some obvious examples) would make a LOT of sense.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: hazerddex on September 16, 2016, 02:42:14 AM
going to have to agree realism is killing this game.

i remember when it first was made before this new team took over.

it had so much potential

tripods
resonance cascade
things from lovecrafts mythos
cyborgs.
mutants.
and yes zombies...
it was basically the si-fi apocalypse of si-fi  apocalypse.

now it seems to be digressing into another basic zombie game :(


The removal sucks. It makes my gameplay slower.

Your gameplay sucks.

Also, just add it to the modlist.
rude

also im getting sick of the "then make it a mod" you should know that not everyone a programmer..
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 16, 2016, 05:34:14 AM
rude

also im getting sick of the "then make it a mod" you should know that not everyone a programmer..

I'm not saying "make it a mod", I'm saying "add an existing mod".

I match the rudeness level of the discussion. When I get a "what you did sucks" I reply with "no u".
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: FrankyPlaysGames on September 16, 2016, 04:45:02 PM
 


I'm not saying "make it a mod", I'm saying "add an existing mod".

I match the rudeness level of the discussion. When I get a "what you did sucks" I reply with "no u".
[/quote]
Pfft, what have you done for the game so far? I'll have you know I had made the placeholder image for the Wiki a very long time ago, and it was live for about 10 minutes before somebody had made a better one.

going to have to agree realism is killing this game.

i remember when it first was made before this new team took over.

it had so much potential

tripods
resonance cascade
things from lovecrafts mythos
cyborgs.
mutants.
and yes zombies...
it was basically the si-fi apocalypse of si-fi  apocalypse.

now it seems to be digressing into another basic zombie game :(

Let's see, other than tripods (there are bipods though) and "resonance cascades" (which sound awesome, what are those?)
 Cataclysm still has:
-Things from the Lovecraft mythos
-cybogs
-mutants
-zombies
And to me it's twenty times more than what Whales had left off on, as good as that might have been, the game still IS a Sci-fi Apocalypse.
Other than clothing, which everyone seems to hate, how is it digressing into another basic zombie game? With all the mods available in World Gen, which includes disabling certain features, you surely can make it as basic of a zombie game as you'd like, sure, but even then it sets itself apart from other "zombie" games.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: AdonaiJr on September 16, 2016, 06:38:06 PM
Pfft, what have you done for the game so far? I'll have you know I had made the placeholder image for the Wiki a very long time ago, and it was live for about 10 minutes before somebody had made a better one.

Oh come on man. Just look at https://github.com/Coolthulhu. I hold in high esteem the dedication Coolthulhu puts in game. Most of the time I see he has very good reasoning skills, and put's it to use on most discussions on github.

We really don't need to to flame each other unnecessarily.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on September 16, 2016, 06:56:53 PM
I think he was joking.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: X-PLODE on September 16, 2016, 07:05:57 PM
Woah, Calamaribro is polski?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 16, 2016, 09:23:09 PM
This explains why they always joke about bisecting tanks anytime sabers are mentioned. o3o
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 16, 2016, 09:31:33 PM
Woah, Calamaribro is polski?

Who, me? If so, yeah.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 16, 2016, 09:48:33 PM
I did technically once two-hit-kill a tank drone with an active incorruptible sword though, so Coolthulhu's running gag about tank bisection isn't that far off the mark in game terms. :V
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 16, 2016, 10:14:36 PM
I did technically once two-hit-kill a tank drone with an active incorruptible sword though, so Coolthulhu's running gag about tank bisection isn't that far off the mark in game terms. :V

Doesn't count, has to be a saber.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: hazerddex on September 16, 2016, 10:23:47 PM


I'm not saying "make it a mod", I'm saying "add an existing mod".

I match the rudeness level of the discussion. When I get a "what you did sucks" I reply with "no u".
Pfft, what have you done for the game so far? I'll have you know I had made the placeholder image for the Wiki a very long time ago, and it was live for about 10 minutes before somebody had made a better one.

going to have to agree realism is killing this game.

i remember when it first was made before this new team took over.

it had so much potential

tripods
resonance cascade
things from lovecrafts mythos
cyborgs.
mutants.
and yes zombies...
it was basically the si-fi apocalypse of si-fi  apocalypse.

now it seems to be digressing into another basic zombie game :(

Let's see, other than tripods (there are bipods though) and "resonance cascades" (which sound awesome, what are those?)
 Cataclysm still has:
-Things from the Lovecraft mythos
-cybogs
-mutants
-zombies
And to me it's twenty times more than what Whales had left off on, as good as that might have been, the game still IS a Sci-fi Apocalypse.
Other than clothing, which everyone seems to hate, how is it digressing into another basic zombie game? With all the mods available in World Gen, which includes disabling certain features, you surely can make it as basic of a zombie game as you'd like, sure, but even then it sets itself apart from other "zombie" games.
[/quote]

ok name 1 update they adde onto a new enemy group besides zombie

why did the quote break?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 16, 2016, 11:00:23 PM
I did technically once two-hit-kill a tank drone with an active incorruptible sword though, so Coolthulhu's running gag about tank bisection isn't that far off the mark in game terms. :V

Doesn't count, has to be a saber.

We don't have a proper saber though. If we did, you can bet I'd be happily running down zombie infantry, only to get ambushed by tanks. :V
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Adventurer on September 17, 2016, 01:17:01 AM
Honestly, I couldn't agree more. The moment Crazy Cataclysm was made into a mod I could see the writing on the walls.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 17, 2016, 01:22:13 AM
Honestly, I couldn't agree more.

Regarding which of many posts?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Adventurer on September 17, 2016, 01:22:40 AM
Honestly, I couldn't agree more.

Regarding which of many posts?
The subject of the thread.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheWumpus on September 17, 2016, 04:26:39 AM
That you need one to replace a wheel on a very large vehicle, yeah, that's a problem.  Ever see a crane, any kind of large RV, or a backhoe?  They all have ways to lift their own wheels off the ground (for stability purposes, but the purpose is irrelevant here).  Something like should be easy to implement - in fact, put the same requirements as wheels, and you've got a secondary system that makes wheels replaceable.  Yay?

I was going to come up with an argument about those being stabilizers to mitigate tipping when loads are moved away from the center line of the chassis, but honestly I see no problem with powered hydraulic rams being a thing. Just a pump that mounts to an engine (which also magically contains the transmission, drive line, and any/all differentials) like an alternator and a wheel end ram attachment. Run the motor, change the wheel. Treat them like another crafting station maybe. In fact to heck with the pump, just run them off batteries.

Hmmm...I'll have to look into that.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Findulidas on September 17, 2016, 01:31:51 PM
I honestly think its quite stupid to say this mod is ruined or controlled by realism when infact it has: zombies that are way more fantastic than the norm, cavemen, triffids, cyborgs, futuristic guns running on rule of cool, unrealisticially awesome uses of everyday weapons, mutagens of several diffrent kinds, magical items, eldritch abominations from other dimensions, scifi labs run by the government in secret everywhere, vaults, random monsters like the thing, you can basically become neo in melee, health system is harsh sure but you can sleep things off, blobs, mycus and all of that, furutistic hostile robots with mininukes, supervehicles, you can learn how to do anything by spending a week reading some books, teleportation and so on... You can also of course quite easily just add a mod with more fantastic stuff and it will work no problem, infact you seem to be more or less encouraged to do so.

All of this makes the game way more fantastic than most games Ive played in the last years.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: hexman on September 17, 2016, 05:10:22 PM
ok name 1 update they adde onto a new enemy group besides zombie

You mean one group which was added to cataclysm after Whales left??

why did the quote break?

It was due a BBCode-syntax error in FrankPlaysGames's post.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on September 17, 2016, 07:33:14 PM
The problem here isn't that realism is bad. Not at all, after all we live in the real world, where redundantly realism surrounds us, and we know it's really not bad.
I'm all up to make realism in this game a high point, it's fun.
The problem is when you try to put realism into the game, and do not actually consider the "game" part.

Most devs don't have a clue of game design. It's the truth. They know how to code, and they are awesome at that. They forget to make the new things they add fun though. Or make them even make sense in the game.

Take Dwarf Fortress, the game that will always be the best at what a sandbox simulation can be. In DF, all systems are fun, they are complex enough to let you play with them in a really huge way, and they create the best stories.
"Cats get drunk by licking their paws after they step on booze spills" level of fun. But that game has a design document and only two (i think) developers working on it, with a clear goal in mind. All systems are interconnected. Everything affects another thing, and everything works the way it is supposed to.

But in Cataclysm, being open source, we have more than one thousand different points of view on how the game should be, and all of those people add simulation systems that work only the way they want to and do not interconnect with any other system.

Let's talk about filthy clothes. It is indeed logical, and i said lots of times before i am in favor of it. It has one major flaw though, it has only one and one way only to clean clothes, with soap and an item that has to be crafted.

Now i have two cats in my home. Having two cats mean i have to clean a lot of cat shit and vomit. And oh i can tell you like ten different ways i have cleaned all of that. Soap, detergent, paper towels, just water, everything basically.

What about filthy clothes in the game where there is indeed towels and detergent and water and even more toxic cleaning products? Oh no, go to the river with a washboard and soap. Sure.

Like Random Dragon said, add realism that adds to the fun and systems and does not go against the idea of realism itself.
Filthy clothes! Realistic! Can't wash them, only with soap in a river! Unrealistic as hell!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on September 17, 2016, 07:40:41 PM
It does add.

People were outraged by it because it made that gore splattered army helmet unappealing.
Dragon skin vest?  You mean dragon skin and peopleguts vest.
Filter mask?  okay, if viscera is a filter.

People were not offended by the concept, they were mad they couldnt throw on the zombie clothing (not all of which were terminally damaged) whenever they found one.
     Or at least that they would suffer a modest penalty for doing so.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on September 17, 2016, 07:42:04 PM
It does add.

People were outraged by it because it made that gore splattered army helmet unappealing.
Dragon skin vest?  You mean deagone skin and peopleguts vest.
Filter mask?  okay, if viscera is a filter.

People were not offended by the concept, they were mad they couldnt throw on the zombie clothing (not all of which were terminally damaged) whenever they found one.
     Or at least that they would suffer a modest penalty for doing so.

Go to the original topic. People didn't like how bad the idea was when you wanted to wash the clothes. It just went against all common sense.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 17, 2016, 07:47:07 PM
People were not offended by the concept, they were mad they couldnt throw on the zombie clothing (not all of which were terminally damaged) whenever they found one.

Or like me, they were annoyed at time and effort being wasted on a feature that, in addition to inconsistent realism, does not contribute to game balance.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 17, 2016, 08:21:04 PM
Zombie clothes weren't even that good in the first place and locking them further behind filthiness made no sense


The only zombie who you'd ever actually loot with filthiness was armored zombies for their power armor.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on September 18, 2016, 02:08:42 AM
well no.

early game is why filthiness exists.  im not sure if anyone here has ever tried to handwash clothing before.  its hard work, and not all that off the mark.

by presoaking clothing you could get the water req down a little, but i nean its not like youre washing sweaty gym socks here.


take a shower victim start, inside a city house.  youll see how clothing matters.  filthiness is a reason to store clothing away, or use it and dump it.  its a reason to drink, and a reason to just not use it.


tweaking filthy clothing should include a residual morale penalty, the restriction of the penalty from plastic/metal clothing, the ability to wipe off metal/plastic clothing, and easier soap access.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 18, 2016, 02:19:52 AM
That doesn't make sense though. Making it so you never had to take off zombie clothing by washing it was an exercise in futility since you can usually find or craft something that's better by the time you can take the time and have the clean water to wash the shitty, likely low-durability zombie clothes.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on September 18, 2016, 02:24:44 AM
being able to magic a duster in 45 minutes is also a mechanic i take issue with, but like filthy clothes i accept its gamey balancing
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: matty491 on September 18, 2016, 11:25:54 AM
6+ Months of realism realism nerfs and wandering spawns is still as dodgy as ever. I'd literally give my two legs to the person that buckles down and fixes wandering spawns, once and for all. I still hate the fact it's impossible to setup a base in wandering spawns because no matter how quiet you are, no matter how silent you are, no matter how clean you smell. The zombies will always find it and will always trash it.

Came back to this game after 2 months of a break and this just reminds me why i stopped in the first place, (3 hours of IRL time) time spent gathering supplies all goes to pot when the zombies invade my base and trash everything.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Shopkeeper on September 18, 2016, 05:53:03 PM
Just out of curiosity, where are you trying to base exactly? I'm setup in a farm house leagues from civilization on my current character and have yet to encounter a horde I didn't explicitly seek out by going to the cities. Which is a far cry from how it used to be on stable.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: matty491 on September 18, 2016, 08:41:18 PM
An evac shelter with city spacing set to 6 and city size set to 3. The evac centre is say about 16 map tiles away from the nearest building so i just dont even know.

I understand the idea of wandering spawns but it seems so stupid to me that there be tonnes of zombies in the centres of a city, I mean surely by this stage of the cataclysm they've started 'Wandering' so they shouldn't be so densely packed in the city.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: X-PLODE on September 18, 2016, 09:16:07 PM
Cities are spawnpoints for hordes.

I don't even know what problem you're referring to.



I recommend you build a base in a city and duct tape all the windows and use zombie pheromones to escape detection.

Try setting some buildings on fire or create audio distractions like turning on a car stereo.

And use traps.

Walls are crushed and buildings demolished because each zombie banging on the same structure will multiply the damage effect.

Hulks will punch holes into anything though.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: bitcoinbastard on September 20, 2016, 03:22:10 PM
Zombie clothes weren't even that good in the first place and locking them further behind filthiness made no sense


The only zombie who you'd ever actually loot with filthiness was armored zombies for their power armor.

I washed exactly one piece of filthy clothing, which was an (early game) light amp goggle drop.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on September 21, 2016, 03:59:26 AM
Lol at people still claiming filthy clothes were a "balance change. It's padding people. Padding to a part of the game that's already bloated to high hell compared to the rest.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on September 21, 2016, 07:13:45 PM
does that mean that there needs to be less going on in the early game? or that mid-late game needs to be expanded to have more Stuff happening... and if so how? Granted the Early game SHOULD have a more desperate grasping desperately for what is needed for survival... but shouldn't that be more long term then it is now?

Maybe Z blood should toxify the ground in the immediate area and make it useless for crops? Would make a horde attack that much more terrible and could cause player to be forced to move. Maybe some other buffs that make long term survival a longer transition than it currently is? Or is it, that it only seems this way because after having a few runs through early game you know what is needed and what is not (cheating the situation through knowledge of mechanics)?

Early game bloated is an interesting take, though an understandable one.d
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on September 22, 2016, 11:42:33 AM
More content does need moving or writing for the midgame and especially the endgame
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on September 22, 2016, 05:41:40 PM
does that mean that there needs to be less going on in the early game? or that mid-late game needs to be expanded to have more Stuff happening... and if so how? Granted the Early game SHOULD have a more desperate grasping desperately for what is needed for survival... but shouldn't that be more long term then it is now?

Maybe Z blood should toxify the ground in the immediate area and make it useless for crops? Would make a horde attack that much more terrible and could cause player to be forced to move. Maybe some other buffs that make long term survival a longer transition than it currently is? Or is it, that it only seems this way because after having a few runs through early game you know what is needed and what is not (cheating the situation through knowledge of mechanics)?

Early game bloated is an interesting take, though an understandable one.d

  When I say its bloated I mean it in the "bloated compared to the rest of the game". I don't believe that the early game needs the developmental equivalent of liposuction, I just believe that attempting to make the early game more complex at this point is an exercise in futility. Cata is a knowledge based game. Absolutely all of the challenge comes from learning it. The new guy that doesn't know what he needs or where to get it struggles and suffers. The veteran player who can see that the things he needs are all around him and knows what he can make out of them breezes through quickly. This doesn't change when you add a bunch of new meters to manage (Nutrition) or a new obnoxious step you have to go through to get your gear working (Filthy Clothes). It just makes the learning curve for the noobs steeper and the routine for the vets more involved (which is meaningless because they've already overcome the challenges that require thought and creativity).

  Do you know what the biggest tragedy of all in this mess is? There is a sizable chunk of the fanbase that genuinely think that Cataclysm is a game about "survival". Seriously I hear things like this all the time from people on both sides of the realism debate. "Nutrition is good because cataclysm is a game about survival and survival stopped being a focus once people built up enough food."  You just made a suggestion along these lines yourself.


Granted the Early game SHOULD have a more desperate grasping desperately for what is needed for survival... but shouldn't that be more long term then it is now?

The answer to that is no. Because Cataclysm isn't a game about survival. It's a game about Survival, Growth, Influence, and Transcendence (seriously people read the design document, it's stickied and free for everyone). Survival is supposed to be a defeatable obstacle that makes up about 25% of the game. People treat it like it's the only meaningful aspect because right now it is. It's swollen up and eclipsed every other stage of the game to the point that they might as well be invisible.

Or is it, that it only seems this way because after having a few runs through early game you know what is needed and what is not (cheating the situation through knowledge of mechanics)?

This is the case. It's not cheating, and it's unavoidable. As I said earlier Cataclysm is a knowledge based game, and that makes metagaming impossible to prevent. Ostensibly the other 75% of the game is supposed to make up for this, but in practice nobody's bothering to make any content for the non "survival" phases.

Hopefully this clarifies my position on "bloat" for you.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on September 22, 2016, 07:06:20 PM
What i am mostly interested in at the moment is work on mutations and endgame locations/enemies/items.
Also the spread of the various nether factions and the z lvl development.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on September 24, 2016, 04:03:18 AM
Quote
  Do you know what the biggest tragedy of all in this mess is? There is a sizable chunk of the fanbase that genuinely think that Cataclysm is a game about "survival". Seriously I hear things like this all the time from people on both sides of the realism debate. "Nutrition is good because cataclysm is a game about survival and survival stopped being a focus once people built up enough food."  You just made a suggestion along these lines yourself.

~snip~

The answer to that is no. Because Cataclysm isn't a game about survival. It's a game about Survival, Growth, Influence, and Transcendence (seriously people read the design document, it's stickied and free for everyone). Survival is supposed to be a defeatable obstacle that makes up about 25% of the game. People treat it like it's the only meaningful aspect because right now it is. It's swollen up and eclipsed every other stage of the game to the point that they might as well be invisible.

Early game, it is about survival. That is what it is, survival to thrive-opoly. Struggling to survive, is arguably the most exciting part of the game, and the part most players see. Its understandable that it gets fleshed out the most, but I can definitely agree that is a poor reason to not flesh out the rest of the game.

I take the viewpoint that just because the point of the game is to eventually overcome and thrive, that doesn't mean that it should not be a more drawn out process to climb that precipise (note that doesn't mean more tedium to lengthen the stage real or in-game time, Great 5 min playtime is better than good 20 or ok hour.) I also think that just because you ARE thriving does not mean you can't STILL struggle to survive in one fashion or another.
\
>So you've got enough food to feed an army for 40 years? Enough guns & ammo to solo fight that army? AND such high tech/magic that pre-cataclysm world rulers would drool? Doesn't that mean that ALL the starving predators, desperate scavenger's willing to fight for protection and alternate dimensional armies consider you the current biggest "threat" to their forces??? (respectively...more or less)

Thriving can be its own risk/reward system within the game, and make mid-late game play just as interesting as Early game, though in a different fashion

Quote
Quote
Or is it, that it only seems this way ~snip~

This is the case. It's not cheating, and it's unavoidable. As I said earlier Cataclysm is a knowledge based game, and that makes metagaming impossible to prevent. Ostensibly the other 75% of the game is supposed to make up for this, but in practice nobody's bothering to make any content for the non "survival" phases.

Hopefully this clarifies my position on "bloat" for you.

Sorry I meant to have "air quotes" in there around cheating. I meant Cheating from a realism point of view, and knew it more or less impossible to erase in entirety. I was pointing more to the same thing you were with "pros" vs "noobs" in that knowledge curve of the game, controls and what is/isn't possible in-game, as well as what the ACTUAL dangers are that you are facing.

I have heard plans to expand the other dimensions and such, (portal travel end game)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zilenan91 on September 24, 2016, 04:16:57 AM
We already have a decent amount of content in terms of getting past the survival stage. In my opinion the survival stage is over once you've got a water purifier and funnel set up. At that point getting food & water becomes trivial and not a problem for most survivors.

Going beyond that, survivors beginning to raid military bases and labs is the logical step. They've likely already gotten into gun stores and started to raise some other skills like mechanics and tailoring, so they'll start acquiring more guns and armor through the military and supplies to mutate themselves in labs to gain additional power.

This gain of power via mutations and CBMs is a very fun and imaginative part of the game. However, once the player has mutated themselves and has built their car and has gotten very powerful weapons, there's not really anything else for them to do beyond that right now. They just keep going down the path of acquiring more power, or if they're playing PRM they go find a Hell Castle and blow it the fuck up with all their guns and explosives (very fun).

Ideally at this stage the NPC system will have taken a forefront. Bands of marauding bandits in giant tricked out bulldozers with flamethrowers mounted on top, roving tribes of cannibal bikers, government forces attempting to regain control of military bases, or maybe even tribes of mutants arising a year or two after the Cataclysm hits like a group of trilobite-men making a home in the sewers and only coming out at night to prey on the dead and hunting the most dangerous game, or a tribe of lizard mutants setting up shop at a ranch or hunting for food in the forests.

NPCs wouldn't have enough omnipresence to make them the ENTIRE game at that point, but they'd have enough variance to make the hunt for gear and additional challenge much much more interesting.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on September 24, 2016, 04:25:28 AM
Yea, and alot of work has gone, and continues to go into making the NPC's ever better. Which definitely helps with the mid-late game content.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on September 24, 2016, 06:12:11 PM
You should be able to kill an npc with no armor of a few shots though, usually it's like trying to kill a bear.
I had this idea for an ultra endgame zone. Is there a way we can make procedural parts of the map like cities but surrounded by map tile wide concrete barriers that the parts of the military set up before the cataclysm, and the city inside would have lots of military equipment and open laboratories, and of course, you'd have a serious pack of all kinds of zombies there, because even with all defenses the virus creeped inside of the fort, and lots of tanks or turrets. It would be a mess. Also in this fortified city there should be a huge building that would have most of the loot and maybe some lore, and who knows what else. I just found this idea of an endgame zone a bunch of map tiles long awesome. Maybe no zombies and turrets because that would be a never-ending fight inside, but maybe zombies everywhere and tank drones and turrets waiting inside of special buildings?

The barrier surrounding the place would have a few fortified doors with turrets in them, and maybe a tank drone. That would mean that if you can pass that well you can pass whatever is inside, so new players would know that.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 24, 2016, 06:53:01 PM
Welp. Someone was going to add a touch of realism that'd actually make the game less shitty. Blame Mugling for this: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13306.0 (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13306.0)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on September 25, 2016, 03:22:34 AM
Welp. Someone was going to add a touch of realism that'd actually make the game less shitty. Blame Mugling for this: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13306.0 (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13306.0)

I now fully remember why Kevin wanted you out. You're doing the exact same thing now as you were back then.
Do you have Asperger's that's making you not realize that bringing up "someone disagreed with me, what a bitch" in unrelated threads is shitty behavior?
It's not even talking back to someone, just going around and saying "you know that dude? he sucks".
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on September 25, 2016, 03:45:39 AM
I don't see it. Maybe I'm missing something. But I don't see anyone doing anything wrong in either thread.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on September 25, 2016, 04:07:03 AM
Muglings suggestion of planning out the mining and stone ore additions is a tangential matter to this thread.

The idea is that in addition to attacking the person, it wasnt over a related issue to 'realism sux and is too focus for me'; the topic of this thread.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 25, 2016, 04:12:07 AM
I have no problem with Mugling's reasoning behind not implementing it, as that's not my problem to worry about. But there are legitimate questions the contributor asked that Mugling danced around in a way that pissed me off.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on September 25, 2016, 04:16:54 AM
I have stayed out of it.

I think that, at the least, some variation in stone couldnt hurt.  Well, except for generation purposes.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mightyagrippa on September 25, 2016, 04:29:11 AM
Every time Random_dragon plops another steaming post onto the forums, I like Mugling a little more.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Lazy_lizard on September 25, 2016, 04:43:01 AM
Let's not build glass houses and get into stone throwing contests here. We can all be friends.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on September 25, 2016, 05:08:30 AM
Every time Random_dragon plops another steaming post onto the forums, I like Mugling a little more.

My friend, I have a bit of reading here that is relevant to your sentiment. I strongly believe that it would be a great benefit to both you and the rest of us here on the forums if you were to read through this page carefully and contemplate the implications of what you just said in relation to it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on September 25, 2016, 05:27:02 AM
And look, the main point of that post was to highlight that yes, there are realism changes being thought up that actually make the game better.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Voqar on September 25, 2016, 11:16:22 AM
Here we go again.  Woohoo!

Why were the "healthy" vehicle part colors changed...what does this gain other than confusion?  Why?!  Now I feel like my whole vehicle is almost repaired but not quite.  Arrrggghh...

But even worse.  Why were repair times made so utterly/stupidly/ UNFUCKING FUN long?

This is a game.  Whoever works on this should repeat that mantra to themselves regularly.  The game is FULL of things that aren't remotely realistic.  Adding selective realism that makes the game immensely annoying and unfun is moronic.  Yes, in reality, it takes hours to repair simple things on vehicles, especially when your dealership mechanic is charging $250/hr to jerk off.  But that doesn't make for fun gameplay.

As of this post, it takes longer to repair a single solar panel or piece of military composite than it does to remove an engine from a vehicle, remove the engine from your vehicle, and mount the new engine in your vehicle.

I'm literally going to end up depleting two cities of food and every animal I can find to butcher just to build and fully repair a death mobile because it takes 4 hours to do anything.  Attach a heavy frame.  4 hours.  Repair anything.  4 hours.

It is not fun to sit and watch the time go by as your repair for hour after hour after hour after hour after hour after hour after hour after hour after hour after hour after hour after hour after hour.  That is NOT good gameplay.  It actually totally fucking sucks.

Is there zero thought or editorial control over what nonsense gets built into this game?

PS - thanks for making filthy clothes a mod.  The no gun clips mod is only so-so because it doesn't fully restore guns to before the disaster (some mods don't exist like extended clips, or didn't last I tried it).  I think canned food contents (unloaded) were changed back in a way to work with cooking again too, which is good considering you need a years worth of food to repair a vehicle now.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on September 25, 2016, 11:38:14 AM
I didn t notice such a huge spike in repair time.
The part colouring happened befor because of a bug . So i would asume its not intended and will be fixed.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on September 25, 2016, 05:35:28 PM
Why were the "healthy" vehicle part colors changed...what does this gain other than confusion?

Vehicle parts depend on items and the vehicle code previously required upon some ugly hacks to try and correctly handle damage when adding/removing parts. They now use the same code path (with the effect the colours are identical). This should allow us to close unintended behavior such as installing a broken gun as a turret, welding it, and then removing it and wielding it. Multiple code paths that do almost the same thing are a common problem in the codebase. We can't really work on new features in that area until the existing issues are resolved.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on September 29, 2016, 09:58:26 PM
Im always baffled at how little sense they make the first paragraph.  its there to beat automated spam filters, sfaik, but have a little more fun with it mayb?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on September 29, 2016, 09:59:28 PM
I'm always left wondering if they actually sell anything this way.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on September 29, 2016, 10:10:05 PM
I'm always left wondering if they actually sell anything this way.

They must. Otherwise I don't see how it would be worth the trouble of making the spambots.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on September 29, 2016, 10:13:48 PM
The site it links to is surprisingly professional, too.

Im always baffled at how little sense they make the first paragraph.  its there to beat automated spam filters, sfaik, but have a little more fun with it mayb?

Dude, in the other thread the poor spambot talks about it's relationship problems, and about the Freeman family, including poor Bill "Erectile Dysfunction" Freeman. It's actually pretty funny stuff.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Caconym on September 29, 2016, 10:17:54 PM
The site it links to is surprisingly professional, too.

Im always baffled at how little sense they make the first paragraph.  its there to beat automated spam filters, sfaik, but have a little more fun with it mayb?

Dude, in the other thread the poor spambot talks about it's relationship problems, and about the Freeman family, including poor Bill "Erectile Dysfunction" Freeman. It's actually pretty funny stuff.
That poor bot, it only wants to make money to try and keep his relationship and support it's family after losing it's previous job. D:
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on September 30, 2016, 02:04:36 AM
so that was a bot post? Interesting.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on September 30, 2016, 04:52:11 AM
Yup, back to normalcy for now.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Voqar on September 30, 2016, 10:24:27 PM
CDDA was a great game.  I loved it.

I don't love the Auto Mechanic 2016 Simulator that it's become.

In fact, when I see the completely off the wall "Blah blah Simulator 2016" games on Steam I'm usually like, WT-everloving-F - who buys this stuff?

I really don't get why people who work on this game are hell bent on making such amazingly miserable changes to the game.

Code reviews - or better yet - design reviews - with a shred of common sense - would be pretty neato.

PS - I can't reset my pwd for this forum since the emails for it never get thru.  I saw someone get a link for this via reddit but I can't find a moderator to try it either.  (Hence I post sparingly via work laptop - which is probably for the best)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on September 30, 2016, 11:34:43 PM
Unfortunately I don't yet have sufficient permissions to handle password recovery - and don't know that I will, as I'm interested in being moderator rather than full Admin. My suggestion would be to message Rivet about this, if you have not already. In my past experience she's been online regularly enough to catch these sorts of things. I couldn't get my own password back either when I returned here this September - I finally remembered it thru sheer force of guesswork. Bleh.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: gamejunky on October 01, 2016, 07:59:33 AM
I wonder how long before it becomes mandatory that your character has to take a daily shit or your guts explode and you die a horrible death.  All in the name of improving realism.  The real question is how long you have to idle for them to finish it.  Maybe the amount of fiber they get in their diet will have a determination on that.  Like if you don't eat enough food high in fiber it takes as long as repairing a part on your vehicle.  And let's not forget the morale penalty you take if you don't keep enough rags or craft enough toilet paper to wipe clean afterward.  Oh! and make sure you shit where zombies and ferocious animals aren't nearby or they might home in on the smell.  Nothing worse that having that private moment interrupted by a zombie hulk.  If you drink too much unclean water you should get Montezuma's Revenge and generate an extra amount of smell that puts you in even more danger.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Findulidas on October 01, 2016, 09:03:13 AM
I wonder how long before it becomes mandatory that your character has to take a daily shit

I could see that working in a game like this. Having diarrhea might not be romantical but it can be scary when you know that you can die of it, dying of diseases related to it is still very common in the world. Without antibiotics, proper clean water and an easy way to rest would be dangerous. Being excessively dehydrated and weak. Not to mention the zombie factor like you mentioned before. Doing your number one and two could also easily have a risk of attracting monsters afterwards due to the smell if you dont dig it down or something. This could be a huge factor if you plan to build a base somewhere. Yeah, I could see that actually working in a game like this.

Would also get thumbs up from me from the basic fact that it would be the first game to implement basic human hygiene principles that we all do every single day in an mechanically important and in universe fitting way as well. Certainly about as much irritating as having to eat food and sleep atleast.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Taberone on October 01, 2016, 02:33:43 PM
I wonder how long before it becomes mandatory that your character has to take a daily shit or your guts explode and you die a horrible death.  All in the name of improving realism.  The real question is how long you have to idle for them to finish it.  Maybe the amount of fiber they get in their diet will have a determination on that.  Like if you don't eat enough food high in fiber it takes as long as repairing a part on your vehicle.  And let's not forget the morale penalty you take if you don't keep enough rags or craft enough toilet paper to wipe clean afterward.  Oh! and make sure you shit where zombies and ferocious animals aren't nearby or they might home in on the smell.  Nothing worse that having that private moment interrupted by a zombie hulk.  If you drink too much unclean water you should get Montezuma's Revenge and generate an extra amount of smell that puts you in even more danger.
I wonder how long before it becomes mandatory that your character has to take a daily shit

I could see that working in a game like this. Having diarrhea might not be romantical but it can be scary when you know that you can die of it, dying of diseases related to it is still very common in the world. Without antibiotics, proper clean water and an easy way to rest would be dangerous. Being excessively dehydrated and weak. Not to mention the zombie factor like you mentioned before. Doing your number one and two could also easily have a risk of attracting monsters afterwards due to the smell if you dont dig it down or something. This could be a huge factor if you plan to build a base somewhere. Yeah, I could see that actually working in a game like this.

Would also get thumbs up from me from the basic fact that it would be the first game to implement basic human hygiene principles that we all do every single day in an mechanically important and in universe fitting way as well. Certainly about as much irritating as having to eat food and sleep atleast.

Bodily functions are a thing that will never happen, though.

Poop and related bodily functions: NO
No, just no, not even in a mod.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on October 01, 2016, 04:16:58 PM
Bodily functions are a thing that will never happen, though.

Poop and related bodily functions: NO
No, just no, not even in a mod.

*cough*

I'm going to agree that tracking whether the characters are meeting their RDA of different nutrients seems a bit excessive.

Yeah, I want Cataclysm to be a game with sim elements, not a hardcore survival sim. So we're not going to be drilling down into the depths of loading individual magazines and whatnot.


Cleaning firearms occasionally? Yes.

Cleaning other things? Possible, but slim

Cleaning clothes? Probably not. The reward for adding it in is probably not worth the amount of hassle it would cause in-game.

The difference between cleaning clothes and repairing them is that on is something you have to do as a result of specific decisions/things that happen to your character, while the other is something you will always have to do. Repairing is something that's only needed to be done after you've gotten into combat (and with better armors not even then). Cleaning is something that would basically amount down to "and then every other day I have to spend time doing this"; and that's a bad thing (or at least something that could be automated).


As a couple examples of stuff that "will never happen". You don't have to look too hard to find more.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 01, 2016, 05:14:03 PM
Cleaning clothes un-happened from the core game, though.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 01, 2016, 05:40:39 PM
Cleaning clothes un-happened from the core game, though.

It still happened in the first place. Never assume that an idea is too stupid to make it in game.

Granted, the difference between "need to take a shit" and the examples ApatheticExcuse cited is that those examples were vetoed by other people, not by Kevin. Now if we can get a quote from Kevin stating that catching scurvy some other such nonsense will never be a thing, then all this discussion becomes a moot point.

Because then he'll have set a precedent for displaying common sense in the past, only to turn right around and decide we need a feature even he previously thought was a bad idea.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Shopkeeper on October 01, 2016, 05:43:50 PM
As a couple examples of stuff that "will never happen". You don't have to look too hard to find more.

You're literally quoting things from 3 years ago. It's been agreed filthy clothes were a generally bad idea that only added tedium, it's in a mod now that with any luck will be forgotten about and support dropped for a while down the line. The ability to handload individual magazines is an improvement. Vitamins currently affect nothing and won't until they're put through the development ringer further, then they'll get a mod to disable them or people will complain enough that being disabled will be standard just like dirty clothes.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on October 01, 2016, 05:49:17 PM
It is called changing your mind.

Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 01, 2016, 06:20:09 PM
Cleaning clothes un-happened from the core game, though.

Yeah, but that happened quietly behind Granades back. There's a high probability that when he becomes active again he'll throw a shit fit and try to  make you re-mainline it. You saw how defensive he got on github whenever anyone suggested removing it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 01, 2016, 07:01:45 PM
How about, instead of taking a guess at how people not present will react, we just decide if we want these features or not.

With a group this big, sometimes somebody's idea makes it into a game despite pre-planning to avoid a feature. For some folks, you just gotta try it to see why it was a bad idea in theory. If we add bad things only to remove them - yes, it is technically a waste of time. We're also not really doing this on a deadline, so. I say roll with it.

I agree though, no pooping. Washing clothes doesn't add anything of value.

If I have to track nutrients, I don't want it to be anything more complex than the foodgroup types listed. Meat, junk, plant matter, dairy, etc. Give me scurvy if I never eat any plant matter, sure, but don't make vitamin C an separate hidden stat. Don't add more numbers into it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 01, 2016, 08:48:06 PM
The ability to handload individual magazines is an improvement

I remember a small but vocal minority originally declaring their inclusion effectively marked the end of the project and they wouldn't be playing any more. So 6+ months later...
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on October 01, 2016, 08:54:15 PM
As a couple examples of stuff that "will never happen". You don't have to look too hard to find more.

You're literally quoting things from 3 years ago.

That was the point, really. These were all considered terrible ideas three years ago by everyone except Kevin - if you click the quotes and read through, that becomes pretty evident.

So, either

1. Something changed and they're somehow not terrible ideas anymore,

or

2. They are still terrible ideas, and the change has been that over the last three years, this has stopped being a community developed game when the other "originators" of the DDA mod went inactive, and started being Kevin's game.

I'll give the exception to mags, which do work pretty well. But, if you read that thread, more of the devs than just Granade thought it was good too.

I could have quoted some things direct from the design document, but I'm under the impression that was more KA101's ideas for the game rather than a summation of everyone's.

Granted, the difference between "need to take a shit" and the examples ApatheticExcuse cited is that those examples were vetoed by other people, not by Kevin.

That's kinda also the point. They were vetoed by others, but Kevin liked them. Now they are things, despite many people and some of the devs not liking them. I don't know how the dev team works - maybe it is Kevin's game 100% and he has final say, but if that's the case, I sincerely hope someone forks it before it becomes more tedious.

It is called changing your mind.

Not really in this case, but if it was, it's a poor paradigm shift.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 01, 2016, 09:19:38 PM
I'll give the exception to mags, which do work pretty well. But, if you read that thread, more of the devs than just Granade thought it was good too.

Which thread because there were a number? A handful of posters provided 95%+ of the 'feedback'. Most of those posters have now moved onto other issues. Will history repeat itself?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 01, 2016, 09:22:25 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on October 01, 2016, 09:23:04 PM
I'm meaning the one I quoted. I didn't bother looking at recent stuff.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 01, 2016, 11:59:56 PM
How about, instead of taking a guess at how people not present will react, we just decide if we want these features or not.

You poor, naive soul. If Kevin decides he really wants filthy clothes to be in mainline, then he'll likely re-mainline it no matter what player feedback and common sense says. In his own words, the project is not a democracy.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on October 02, 2016, 01:15:45 AM
Thats a good thing. The community usualy wants things that are poorly thought through. It is better if the devs decide what is good for the project.
The community should only serve as inspiration and feedback . It should not have any deciding power.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 02, 2016, 01:35:42 AM
This is not a good thing if the devs (more importantly, any of them with merge permissions) latch onto ideas that are sound and sensible only to them. We would not have 14 pages of this thread otherwise.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 02, 2016, 01:40:01 AM
Most of those posters have now moved onto other issues. Will history repeat itself?


I'd say that depends entirely on how "optional" the opposed feature is. People protested Filthy Clothes loudly and constantly from the moment they were introduced til the moment that they were removed because it wasn't something they could turn off. I guarantee you that if you removed the option to disable Meter Management Hell (vitamins) the people that opposed it during it's inception would return in force to protest it even more loudly and constantly than Filthy Clothes. Also magazines are small potatoes compared to (Make Sure These 10 Meters Stay High But Not Too High Or You'll Suffer Crippling Consequences) and (If You Didn't Take An Automotive Class In Highschool Then This Game Definitely Isn't For You).

With those on the horizon I can't in good consciousness blame anyone for dropping their vendetta against magazines and "moving on to other issues".

Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on October 02, 2016, 01:44:55 AM
This is not a good thing if the devs (more importantly, any of them with merge permissions) latch onto ideas that are sound and sensible only to them. We would not have 14 pages of this thread otherwise.

Having bad devs is bad yes.

But can you come up with another remedy for this then gaining better devs?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Tawarochir on October 02, 2016, 02:01:05 AM
This is not a good thing if the devs (more importantly, any of them with merge permissions) latch onto ideas that are sound and sensible only to them. We would not have 14 pages of this thread otherwise.
This.

They say that the community doesn't always know what's best for them. If the community--i.e., most of the players--thinks something is bad, then it's a bad feature. If the community puts in something stupid, then if most of the players agree that it's stupid, they should be able to take it back out. It's not like the players need babysitters. 'Tyranny of the majority' doesn't really apply in this case, frankly, because this is a video game, not real life.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on October 02, 2016, 02:01:51 AM
This is not a good thing if the devs (more importantly, any of them with merge permissions) latch onto ideas that are sound and sensible only to them. We would not have 14 pages of this thread otherwise.

Having bad devs is bad yes.

But can you come up with another remedy for this then gaining better devs?

Having a "team leader" is who is not actively hostile to other devs and members of the playerbase that disagree with him might be a good start.

Similarly, having one who doesn't insist that a game (or in this case a mod of a game) that he's not even responsible for creating is subject to his personal whims might be another.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 02, 2016, 02:06:15 AM
This is not a good thing if the devs (more importantly, any of them with merge permissions) latch onto ideas that are sound and sensible only to them. We would not have 14 pages of this thread otherwise.

Having bad devs is bad yes.

But can you come up with another remedy for this then gaining better devs?

Having a "team leader" is who is not actively hostile to other devs and members of the playerbase that disagree with him might be a good start.

Similarly, having one who doesn't insist that a game (or in this case a mod of a game) that he's not even responsible for creating is subject to his personal whims might be another.

This. 100%
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 02, 2016, 02:18:20 AM
Having a "team leader" is who is not actively hostile to other devs and members of the playerbase that disagree with him might be a good start.

Similarly, having one who doesn't insist that a game (or in this case a mod of a game) that he's not even responsible for creating is subject to his personal whims might be another.

Hell, put Coolthulhu in charge instead. He/she/squid(?) generally has their head screwed on straight.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on October 02, 2016, 02:20:17 AM
So it is not Kevins fork?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 02, 2016, 02:22:05 AM
That unfortunately is the problem. Kevin is as much a keystone of the project as Whales or KA101 used to be. Granted, I have no personal experience with those two.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on October 02, 2016, 02:47:15 AM
From my understanding, it's Darkling Wolf's mod originally, though to be fair, I don't know how much of the content he created vs. how much Kevin and others have since then. I'll be the first to admit that I don't remember the details all that well, but from what I recall, it was his first, then Kevin signed on.

It's Kevin's *now*, either way, and in re-reading that, I think I worded it poorly because it really shouldn't matter who "owns" it at this point.

KA had some ideas about running the forum that didn't jive too well with some of us, but you can't deny his contributions to the game and ability as a dev.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 02, 2016, 03:00:31 AM
So it is not Kevins fork?

Who it "belongs" to is entirely semantic at this point. There was a time when Granade did an overwhelming majority of the development personally. At that point it was very definitely "his fork". Nowadays he VERY occasionally cleans up code (which is appreciated) and mostly just vetoes reasonable suggestions and antagonizes people he doesn't agree with (which is less appreciated). Contrary to what american television may try to tell you, abrasiveness is actually a horrible quality for an administrator to have. He's not bad at his job, but he's also nowhere near talented enough at it to justify the "insufferable genius" archetype that he looks to be trying portray himself as.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 02, 2016, 03:10:07 AM
Contrary to what american television may try to tell you, abrasiveness is actually a horrible quality for an administrator to have. He's not bad at his job, but he's also nowhere near talented enough at it to justify the "insufferable genius" archetype that he looks to be trying portray himself as.

Basically this. Best case scenario, you have sane devs like Rivet or Coolthulhu dealing with his attitude. Otherwise you have:

1. Less capable contributors getting brow-beaten into going along with his ideas.

2. Assholes like me that are just as bad with people as Kevin is, and thus friction ensues.

With the latter, it's even worse if the other people isn't able to own up to their attitude problems. At least I have readily owned up to my half of the drama between Kevin and I.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 02, 2016, 03:45:14 AM
The point I was originally trying to make before I got sidetracked by my own opinions (It appears that I am in fact not perfect. Shame.) was that his actual power over the project now isn't really backed by anything tangible. Back when he was one of the most active developers he was indispensable. If he'd left, Cataclysm would have withered and died. That isn't the case now.  Coolthulu, Rivet, Mugling, Soywieser, Tho Ki, codemime and many others contribute tons of work to the project every day. It would continue living even if Granade was out of the picture. In that sense he doesn't really "own" it any more. You'd have to find somebody else to foot the server bills before anything like that happened though.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on October 02, 2016, 03:48:11 AM
I d have to read more into it on github to say any more on this.
What do most of the other contributers think?

Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: gamejunky on October 02, 2016, 04:52:52 AM
Just to set the record straight, when I was talking about maintaining bodily functions, I was being facetious.  It's my way of saying too much realism is shit.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 02, 2016, 05:10:57 AM
Just to set the record straight, when I was talking about maintaining bodily functions, I was being facetious.  It's my way of saying too much realism is shit.

Reminder, from the "bad ideas" thread:

Would go well with the "random paraphilia" trait someone suggested. o3o

Also, another suggestion. Make car maintenance every bit as irksome as it is in real life. Top off the oil or the engine starts fucking itself up. Top up the brakes or enjoy crashing a lot. Keep the radiator filled or you overheat. Busted axle, Fun.

Battery damage corroded the terminal wires? Better hope future cars don't use the complex terminal assemblies a lot of new cars these days use. Serpentine belt wore out? You need a specific set of tools to replace those, and better hope it didn't go out because the A/C compressor froze up.

No idea is too shit to be included.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: hexman on October 02, 2016, 07:17:12 AM
That unfortunately is the problem. Kevin is as much a keystone of the project as Whales or KA101 used to be. Granted, I have no personal experience with those two.

IIRC, Whales was never a DDA developer. Didn't Kevin and others took his original "Cataclysm project" and created DDA? It seems that he doesn't like his game turned into DDA and started working on his own fork, Cataclysm 2 ((http://whalesdev.tumblr.com/post/96006509591/its-nice-see-you-back-and-working-on-continuing), but unfortunately there are no updates on the project for almost a year so it's probably dead now.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 02, 2016, 08:44:24 AM
Whales made a game, and for reasons I was not around for, left to work on another project. It was my understanding that CDDA was a fork/mod of this game by Darklingwolf, and GlyphGryph/Kevin signed on close after, contributing to our forum and our game's code respectively. Since then, people have come and gone in their levels of contribution. KA101 did massive contributions later, starting with extensive additions to the mutation trees in game. There are new contributors that I don't recognize yet. Seems less like one massive community project, and more like a revolving door to me.

My timeline may be incorrect. Regardless, discussing 'ownership' is not really getting us very far. At least this long stack of pages is a good repository for what the general fanbase doesn't want in their game.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ApatheticExcuse on October 02, 2016, 09:26:11 AM
Whales made a game, and for reasons I was not around for, left to work on another project. It was my understanding that CDDA was a fork/mod of this game by Darklingwolf, and GlyphGryph/Kevin signed on close after, contributing to our forum and our game's code respectively. Since then, people have come and gone in their levels of contribution. KA101 did massive contributions later, starting with extensive additions to the mutation trees in game. There are new contributors that I don't recognize yet. Seems less like one massive community project, and more like a revolving door to me.

My timeline may be incorrect. Regardless, discussing 'ownership' is not really getting us very far. At least this long stack of pages is a good repository for what the general fanbase doesn't want in their game.

That's pretty much how I recall things. As you say, who "owns" it isn't too relevant, but the effects that has on the dev process kinda is.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on October 02, 2016, 10:32:47 AM
Well, sometimes stripping off stuff from a game makes it actually more enjoyable, in a game design sense! So talking about stuff we don't want can help, as long as we are being good critics.
Ico is a great example, where it was going to have a huge world and and towns and a whole system of buying stuff, and it was stripped down to the game it is today, and it benefited from that!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 02, 2016, 02:15:17 PM
You poor, naive soul. If Kevin decides he really wants filthy clothes to be in mainline, then he'll likely re-mainline it no matter what player feedback and common sense says. In his own words, the project is not a democracy.

Well he's correct it isn't a democracy and I'm not aware of him having said it's an autocracy either. In open source projects those who contribute the most inevitably get the greatest say in the projects direction. Kevin has contributed a lot so his opinion remains relevant. I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of his viewpoints but panning someone who isn't present to defend themselves is unfair.

I don't know how the dev team works - maybe it is Kevin's game 100% and he has final say, but if that's the case, I sincerely hope someone forks it before it becomes more tedious.

The dev team avoids open confrontation between it's members to reduce this risk. Only an active developer with irreconcilable differences is likely to fork and that would be for their own reasons - not to champion ideas they read on a forum.

Thats a good thing. The community usualy wants things that are poorly thought through. It is better if the devs decide what is good for the project.
The community should only serve as inspiration and feedback . It should not have any deciding power.

Magazines is a good example. <5% of posters aggressively opposed this and claimed to represent 100% of the players whilst doing so. Now almost everybody is in favor of it. As a result anyone who claims to both represent the entire playerbase and to reliably predict the future has no influence on the developers at all.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Beanzy on October 02, 2016, 03:40:09 PM
Magazines is a good example. <5% of posters aggressively opposed this and claimed to represent 100% of the players whilst doing so. Now almost everybody is in favor of it.

Don't assume this will always be the case though. Filthy clothes, for example, were also protested with vigor on the forums but were actually disliked by the greater part of the playerbase.

If feedback on the forums/etc. is simply going to be treated as white noise, then I hope you're at least prepared to remove controversial features from the game when they are legitimately disliked by the playerbase (e.g. filthy clothes).
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 02, 2016, 04:00:39 PM
Don't assume this will always be the case though. Filthy clothes, for example, were also protested with vigor on the forums but were actually disliked by the greater part of the playerbase.

Absolutely. If an idea is universally unpopular it will be reconsidered and indeed this occurred with filthy clothing.

If feedback on the forums/etc. is simply going to be treated as white noise

Posts that claim to represent everyone, predict the apocalypse or from posters that are repeatedly and needlessly aggressive are white noise. Those posters then complain we don't listen to the forums whereas actually we just don't listen to them.

If it's concise, on-topic and civil you have an excellent chance of discussing it with a developer. OTOH if all you do is shitpost and claim to be leaving every week then you can hardly be surprised if nobody wants to engage with you.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 02, 2016, 04:18:00 PM
Well said.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 02, 2016, 04:29:22 PM
Don't assume this will always be the case though. Filthy clothes, for example, were also protested with vigor on the forums but were actually disliked by the greater part of the playerbase.

Absolutely. If an idea is universally unpopular it will be reconsidered and indeed this occurred with filthy clothing.

If feedback on the forums/etc. is simply going to be treated as white noise

Posts that claim to represent everyone, predict the apocalypse or from posters that are repeatedly and needlessly aggressive are white noise. Those posters then complain we don't listen to the forums whereas actually we just don't listen to them.

If it's concise, on-topic and civil you have an excellent chance of discussing it with a developer. OTOH if all you do is shitpost and claim to be leaving every week then you can hardly be surprised if nobody wants to engage with you.

Yeah, I never really understood what the whole "leaving the forum  in protest" thing is supposed to accomplish. I've seen it on literally every forum I've ever participated on. Without fail there's a subset of people who think that depriving others of their presence will somehow change the established dynamics on the forum in question.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 02, 2016, 04:49:10 PM
Yeah, I never really understood what the whole "leaving the forum  in protest" thing is supposed to accomplish. I've seen it on literally every forum I've ever participated on. Without fail there's a subset of people who think that depriving others of their presence will somehow change the established dynamics on the forum in question.

Indeed the initial post of this thread follows that format:

Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 02, 2016, 06:36:14 PM
Yeah, I never really understood what the whole "leaving the forum  in protest" thing is supposed to accomplish. I've seen it on literally every forum I've ever participated on. Without fail there's a subset of people who think that depriving others of their presence will somehow change the established dynamics on the forum in question.
God, no! The threat to leave is not about that! It's a statement. Bit like people who go on a hunger strike or set themselves on fire. It tries to convey the message that "This will not stand, and I will be the first to go, and others might turn away as well, and I want you to be aware of this emerging trend, so that you have a chance of changing your ways before things escalate too far."

And after a disappointed person is gone, he starts trash-talking the game to any other gamer whom he might come across in the future, or perhaps even worse, he says nothing, and in doing so he does his small part to make sure the game gets forgotten.

Now I've threatened to leave once or twice in the way back past NOT WITH CDDA, but with other projects/communities. It's almost an inevitable phase, a path of thought that we're all very likely to go down at some point, at least when faced with persistent disappointment bordering bitterness. At the very least we explore the option of leaving the thing behind.

One does not threaten to leave if one does not love the thing that he threatens to leave.

* * * * *

Moving on. The thing about democracy vs. autocracy/dictatorship. What if we had two development lines of CDDA? One with Kevin's dictatorship and one with democratic approach?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 02, 2016, 07:33:52 PM
I don't think Ive ever threatened any community or developer with my leaving. I usually just leave quietly if the game doesn't draw me in/doesn't draw me in anymore, if I have hope for it I point out a few things I think would improve it/ bugs ive run into etc.. in a polite and helpful manor. If I want to leave, then I just leave. If the game doesn't interest me enough to play then I don't waste further time with it whining and complaining about it, I go searching for a game that has whatever the last one was missing, key elements etc... that make or break it.

****
Um.. I am not sure what everyone is complaining about w/ kev. If you hate it so much, go make your own fork... or just stay and make your own mods that go the way you want. They don't have to be official cannon, mainlined or even official unofficial mods to have the right to exist.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 02, 2016, 08:37:19 PM

* * * * *

Moving on. The thing about democracy vs. autocracy/dictatorship. What if we had two development lines of CDDA? One with Kevin's dictatorship and one with democratic approach?
[/quote]


Wouldn't work. It would require devs to update and support two separate codebase which would be a pain in the ass for eveyone.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 02, 2016, 11:10:06 PM
Bit like people who go on a hunger strike or set themselves on fire

Throwing your toys out has nothing to do with self-sacrifice and in any case this is a game so have some sense of proportionality!

It tries to convey the message that "This will not stand, and I will be the first to go, and others might turn away as well, and I want you to be aware of this emerging trend, so that you have a chance of changing your ways before things escalate too far."

Another prophecy of doom if we don't acquiesce to your viewpoint. You've done this before - magazines would be a good example. Bonus marks for going for maximum offense when starting this thread.

And after a disappointed person is gone, he starts trash-talking the game to any other gamer whom he might come across in the future, or perhaps even worse, he says nothing, and in doing so he does his small part to make sure the game gets forgotten.

I suppose it depends on the individual - I'm sure most people are good natured and would just move on instead.

Moving on. The thing about democracy vs. autocracy/dictatorship. What if we had two development lines of CDDA? One with Kevin's dictatorship and one with democratic approach?

Why are we back to this - it looks like you want to make a land grab? Asking who owns an open source project is kind of missing the point.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on October 02, 2016, 11:26:19 PM
I come back to check on news about a new stable release(as I'm still playing Cooper), and check the lastest stable for almost two years now, althou I barely played 0.B and most of my playing is with 0.C.

Gotta say that it looks like contributors don't coordinate among themselves, and whoever people has power to accept a PR doesn't seem to communicate with the others.
And in my opinion, a lot of stuff seems to happen on GitHub, between the whoever small group of contributors that are active at the time. Thing likes "The Drawing Board - Suggestions, Comments, and Future Plans" are underutilized by the active contributors at the time, making once again, that one contributor does X and another does X by doing XY and having some conflicting PRs, or discussions about core mechanics being in GitHub by just a handful of the active contributors instead of discussing, exterminating and evaluating it in the forum, where it would remain archive for everyone to re-examine, instead of diving through the GitHub issues.

I also think that the C:DDA Design Outline (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5559.0) has been totally ignored by now, specially as it states and I quote the design outline:
Quote from: C:DDA Design Outline
The Rule of Fun is prime: if it isn’t fun, you shouldn’t be doing it.

And finally, another thing I don't understand, is why all the "hardcore realism" mechanics aren't introduced as mod, instead of forcing them as core mechanic. It seems that now everyone thinks that CDDA is a hardcore realism simulator, I again quote:

Quote from: C:DDA Design Outline
We consider DDA a freeform, post-apocalypse, low-intensity, reality-based, roguelike, with a focus on survival-sim elements and a heavy emphasis on scavenging.

Low-intensity means that the game is not constantly high-pressure, and not every move must be precisely calculated. It’s OK to relax and enjoy it; there will be aspects that you need not mess with, and that’s OK.  Someone else will like those, and maybe even dislike the aspects that you enjoy.  But there’s enough to go around.  We neither need nor want competition for the “best” DDA player, and don’t even know how we’d define that.  The Rule of Fun is prime: if it isn’t fun, you shouldn’t be doing it.  That said, super-intense stuff may happen (and it may happen when you don’t want it to!) but the overall experience should come at you at whatever pace you choose to pursue. It should be just as possible to lead a slow and careful life in harmony with nature outside the cities as it is to make crazy laser-slinging assaults on superscience labs.

So again, it seems that everything now is about realism, and not about post-apoc stuff, scavenging, mid and specially late game content. It looks like soon we'll have to hoard TP to do tactical poops behind a bush and then plash some ammonia to disguise the smell to not attract critters.

So again, why the powers at be(squidman, gunperson, knade etc) don't just try to devise a way to coordinate and communicate easily and coherent between the bazillion temporal and not-so-temporal contributors and specially between themselves, as they are the ones that have the actual power to decide what goes into the main branch and what doesnt?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mlangsdorf on October 03, 2016, 12:39:48 AM
Would also get thumbs up from me from the basic fact that it would be the first game to implement basic human hygiene principles that we all do every single day in an mechanically important and in universe fitting way as well.

Sheltered is a published, commercial game about living in a fall-out shelter and you have to build, use, and clean toilets so CDDA is too late for that. Which is another good reason to not add bodily functions to CDDA.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on October 03, 2016, 12:49:39 AM
Would also get thumbs up from me from the basic fact that it would be the first game to implement basic human hygiene principles that we all do every single day in an mechanically important and in universe fitting way as well.

Sheltered is a published, commercial game about living in a fall-out shelter and you have to build, use, and clean toilets so CDDA is too late for that. Which is another good reason to not add bodily functions to CDDA.

Because it is on the theme and it goes with with the design of management of a place. CDDA is not that.

Also it would get really annoying. Just think about it in a serious, design focused point of view. Even I thought it was a good idea until I really thought about it, a long time ago.

Not to derail, so I'll go back: Alec White, I'm pretty much with you on this one.

Maybe we should start giving the design doc the importance it should.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: gamejunky on October 03, 2016, 04:54:13 AM
You poor, naive soul. If Kevin decides he really wants filthy clothes to be in mainline, then he'll likely re-mainline it no matter what player feedback and common sense says. In his own words, the project is not a democracy.

Well he's correct it isn't a democracy and I'm not aware of him having said it's an autocracy either. In open source projects those who contribute the most inevitably get the greatest say in the projects direction. Kevin has contributed a lot so his opinion remains relevant. I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of his viewpoints but panning someone who isn't present to defend themselves is unfair.

I don't know how the dev team works - maybe it is Kevin's game 100% and he has final say, but if that's the case, I sincerely hope someone forks it before it becomes more tedious.

The dev team avoids open confrontation between it's members to reduce this risk. Only an active developer with irreconcilable differences is likely to fork and that would be for their own reasons - not to champion ideas they read on a forum.

Thats a good thing. The community usualy wants things that are poorly thought through. It is better if the devs decide what is good for the project.
The community should only serve as inspiration and feedback . It should not have any deciding power.

Magazines is a good example. <5% of posters aggressively opposed this and claimed to represent 100% of the players whilst doing so. Now almost everybody is in favor of it. As a result anyone who claims to both represent the entire playerbase and to reliably predict the future has no influence on the developers at all.

It's not Kevin's game.  By that logic is it Whale's game who actually has more understanding of the spirit and ethics of open source to ever make such an assertion even though he's the original developer of what this game is a fork of.  And I can see what Whale's gripe is with this project.  It's the double-standard of it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Shopkeeper on October 03, 2016, 05:26:17 AM
I come back to check on news about a new stable release(as I'm still playing Cooper), and check the lastest stable for almost two years now, althou I barely played 0.B and most of my playing is with 0.C.

The main thing with this is that the really work intensive projects (the biggest offender being the implementation of Z-levels) have to be by and far done with a certain level of polish to boot, before work towards a stable 0.D release can even begin. You should try a recent experimental, two years of development is crammed into them and it really does show.

Gotta say that it looks like contributors don't coordinate among themselves, and whoever people has power to accept a PR doesn't seem to communicate with the others. And in my opinion, a lot of stuff seems to happen on GitHub, between the whoever small group of contributors that are active at the time. Thing likes "The Drawing Board - Suggestions, Comments, and Future Plans" are underutilized by the active contributors at the time, making once again, that one contributor does X and another does X by doing XY and having some conflicting PRs, or discussions about core mechanics being in GitHub by just a handful of the active contributors instead of discussing, exterminating and evaluating it in the forum, where it would remain archive for everyone to re-examine, instead of diving through the GitHub issues.

Eh, all the actual work that gets done with the code is on Github though. CDDA isn't a democracy, it's a game whose development is community driven. That community isn't the forum-goers here, it's the people who actually go onto Github and work with the code to add or change what they or other coders want. We can give all the ideas and helpful suggestions we want here, it doesn't matter if nobody actually helps put in the work to implement them.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 03, 2016, 05:47:56 AM
Quote
Eh, all the actual work that gets done with the code is on Github though. CDDA isn't a democracy, it's a game whose development is community driven. That community isn't the forum-goers here, it's the people who actually go onto Github and work with the code to add or change what they or other coders want. We can give all the ideas and helpful suggestions we want here, it doesn't matter if nobody actually helps put in the work to implement them.

Well... I think that might actually be undermining the Forum side of the community a bit too much, but most of the important stuff actually happens on Git.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Shopkeeper on October 03, 2016, 06:17:14 AM
Is it really though? Most of us that post here don't contribute and ideas are a dime a dozen.

I don't really like Mugling's seeming stick it in a mod mentality for instance. But I know as basically a non-contributor my word on the forum here amounts to jack in the long term when all the actual work gets done on Github.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 03, 2016, 06:34:56 AM
Stick-it-in-a-mod is the solution in some cases. I don't think it's the solution in all cases, and we really ought to be looking back to the game design outline doc to help decide what solutions reach that intended design best.

That doc is so under-used on account of the rather open approach to various individuals contributing new material. It's a case of too many cooks in some ways, and not enough dialogue in others.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 03, 2016, 09:31:37 AM
Is it really though? Most of us that post here don't contribute and ideas are a dime a dozen.

We have three types of issue:


The linked technical issues are critical bugs for 0.D (please don't spam github unless you want to work on a solution). We don't need more ideas men but we do definitely need more developers.

Eh, all the actual work that gets done with the code is on Github though. CDDA isn't a democracy, it's a game whose development is community driven. That community isn't the forum-goers here, it's the people who actually go onto Github and work with the code to add or change what they or other coders want. We can give all the ideas and helpful suggestions we want here, it doesn't matter if nobody actually helps put in the work to implement them.

Correct. Open source projects can never be democratic for this reason. Nobody would ever work on the first two types of issue and the project would stall. I don't disagree you have a community on the forums nor that such a thing is important. However a minority like to use the word 'community' to suggest they have either an authority or power they simply don't posses. Sometimes we do take ideas from the forum and implement them but nobody should expect an automatic right to have someone else work on their suggestion.

I don't really like Mugling's seeming stick it in a mod mentality for instance.

Stick-it-in-a-mod is the solution in some cases

The developers have to deal with everyone and you all have different and often opposing views. Additionally a lot of PR's are written by beginner programmers who are unfamiliar with the codebase. Whilst we spend a lot of time trying to resolve those issues nobody should expect to be entitled to merge whatever they like and have the developers support it for them. Unfortunately statistics are better than half of those new contributors won't stay around to finish or maintain their ideas.

But I know as basically a non-contributor my word on the forum here amounts to jack in the long term when all the actual work gets done on Github.

It counts somewhat more given you show some understanding of how development actually takes place. When compared to the OP for this thread its quite clear who it's going to be more productive discussing something with.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 03, 2016, 02:43:21 PM
Well said mugling.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 03, 2016, 03:49:36 PM
Bit like people who go on a hunger strike or set themselves on fire

Throwing your toys out has nothing to do with self-sacrifice and in any case this is a game so have some sense of proportionality!

It tries to convey the message that "This will not stand, and I will be the first to go, and others might turn away as well, and I want you to be aware of this emerging trend, so that you have a chance of changing your ways before things escalate too far."

Another prophecy of doom if we don't acquiesce to your viewpoint. You've done this before - magazines would be a good example. Bonus marks for going for maximum offense when starting this thread.

And after a disappointed person is gone, he starts trash-talking the game to any other gamer whom he might come across in the future, or perhaps even worse, he says nothing, and in doing so he does his small part to make sure the game gets forgotten.

I suppose it depends on the individual - I'm sure most people are good natured and would just move on instead.

Moving on. The thing about democracy vs. autocracy/dictatorship. What if we had two development lines of CDDA? One with Kevin's dictatorship and one with democratic approach?

Why are we back to this - it looks like you want to make a land grab? Asking who owns an open source project is kind of missing the point.
-A game that happens to be a lot of fun, or even mindblowing. No need to take my metaphors so literally.

-You are right that I didn't like the magazine change much but eventually I got used to it. And now we have the mod to disable it, making it an entirely different thing. There was no talk about having a "no mag mod" back then, not at first. Noise had to be raised. And by "this thread" do you mean 'a' or 'the' magazine thread? I didn't start this current thread though. And I don't remember starting a thread about magazine discussion, although it is quite possible.

-Good-natured vs. passionate. Good-natured, when taken far and wide enough, isn't a good thing. Separate discussion. And for example, why are you criticizing me now? Is it because you want to defend your work? Why don't you just quit and move on to another game? See? That's why.

-It's not about ownership. It's about management, management styles and experimenting with different management styles, just to see what would happen. And there's nothing to stop from having the mugling line of CDDA, for example, and assuming you'd be willing to manage your own line.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 03, 2016, 04:47:20 PM
Quote
-A game that happens to be a lot of fun, or even mindblowing. No need to take my metaphors so literally.
I am confused as to what is trying to be accomplished here. I think you want someone else to manage CDDA? Not sure why you feel that, its an open source project so you can add to it as you like, but you seem to be happy with where the game is... so maybe he hasn't done such a bad job so far?
Quote
-You are right that I didn't like the magazine change much but eventually I got used to it. And now we have the mod to disable it, making it an entirely different thing. There was no talk about having a "no mag mod" back then, not at first. Noise had to be raised. And by "this thread" do you mean 'a' or 'the' magazine thread? I didn't start this current thread though. And I don't remember starting a thread about magazine discussion, although it is quite possible.
this thread seems self explanatory... the one we are currently discussing whithin, but ok we'll jump over to discussing magazines thread instead. I think Magazines might have been handled better if you look at it from a short term perspective. Long term... same difference. The devs knew they would end up with a functional magazine system, they also knew there would be growing pains. That known they could have implemented the no mags mod first and then started working on implementing magazines. That said, you do realize you are playing the experimentals right? So you are a crash test dummy. Sometimes we don't walk away so pretty before problems get solved.

So, it could have been handled better. But at the same time, it never should have become as big of an issue as it did. There was never any ACTUAL reason to raise a fuss over it, other than to go WOAH guys. This is REALLY broken right now, please implement a no mags mod, or just work on it more before you start implementing.

Anything that can be raged about, can better be solved with calm collected minds trying to solve the underlying issues and addressing them.

Quote
-Good-natured vs. passionate. Good-natured, when taken far and wide enough, isn't a good thing. Separate discussion.

Um... I think you got that backwards. Good-natured would mean being kind, sensitive, and helpful. Passion is what you can have too much of. Passion is a great thing that drives all of human invention and innovation, but too much blinds people to anything in their way. The rest of your argument in this paragraph seems to support this idea... in that you may be getting too much passion.

Quote
And for example, why are you criticizing me now? Is it because you want to defend your work? Why don't you just quit and move on to another game? See? That's why.

Im not sure criticize is the right word. Debate seems more accurate to me, or arguing with. Yes, I would say thats probably part of the reason... but also probably less than you seem to think, I imagine (sorry if im speaking out your mouth mugling...) he is doing the devs OTHER job and communicating with the forum people... thus trying to resolve that communication issue that was talked about earlier. Thus he is trying to correct any misconceptions you may have, as well as pull any valid arguments you may have out of your upset rantings. Something that would be easier done with calm heads.

Quote
-It's not about ownership. It's about management, management styles and experimenting with different management styles, just to see what would happen. And there's nothing to stop from having the mugling line of CDDA, for example, and assuming you'd be willing to manage your own line.

WOW. Ok.. SOO much a no. I can't say it hard enough. 1st off "lets just see what would happen" I think I can hear CDDA crashing already. Bad plan, as there is no plan mentioned here. "lets wing it" is a terrible plan that will spaghettify any project as large as CDDA. If you think we should replace Kevin then fine, make that argument for the case, and have a valid executable plan for doing so. But MANY countries have fallen into ruin because a charismatic person stood up and replaced a person with a plan, only to not have any executable plan once they took the place, other than "we will Change things" or "we'll find a solution" This is the kind of issues that many an OVERZELOUS union has caused as well, which may be a better example in this case.

Anyways... On to the other stuff mentioned here. There is nothing wrong with you trying to make your own version of the game, or your own branch if that is what you want to do. But don't use it as a threat... If you think you know a better management style. Then say so... and then actually follow through with what it might be. Or lead by example.

I am not sure whats up with you Beer beer, but I thought you more reasonable than this. What I am seeing here, frankly terrifies me. Its manipulative, underhanded, trickery. Not only that, but it reeks of the kind of "I CRAVE to be a leader no matter the cost" mindset that destroys good things. Do not take that path.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on October 03, 2016, 05:19:52 PM
I think the issue is the community being a little left out of stuff, basically having to have someone bring the news from github so then we discuss them here, and then no one actually giving importance to what we say, and in the case it gets too big a developer may come down in ultra defensive mode to basically tell us why we are wrong, and then not be willing to see if there is a better way about things. And just then, if we are loud enough, they may realize when they do a fudgeup.

I'm not saying that developers should do only what the player base wants, but maybe telling us a bit about stuff and being more open minded about opinions instead of getting defensive that theirs is The One True Way would be a good idea.
Filthy clothes would have been so good if cleaning them wouldn't be so unrealistic, for example. And it was discussed, but eventually it just became two sides throwing poop at each other.

I have been playing for more than three years, and i know about people that have been playing way more. And in a community as small as this one that's actually quite valuable, as people here know a lot about how the game goes and try to have the most fun in it, and lots have been playing for so long they know what would work and what wouldn't. But no one really cares apparently.

Another problem might be having too many developers working on small things that don't interconnect leading to the tedious feature creep that is slowly taking over the game, as opposed to a more focused development. It's understandable, though, as I guess most just don't want to work in the big things like z levels or simply not have the talent for now. I'm starting to learn to code and I can tell how hard can it be with a project like this.
And having to also listen to us being annoying in the forum might be too much, but I swear we all want the same thing here, to have fun with the game.

I do think devs should really at least check out here more often, and give a little more importance to what we say, because we too know how the game works.
The forum is important. It's the people that are the most invested in the game. They make tilesets, mods, sound packs, art, stories, etc, and they have been playing for a couple years already. It matters a lot.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 03, 2016, 05:26:06 PM
^ Although the forum has been a bit hotheaded recently getting upset about things that should be discussed instead.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on October 03, 2016, 05:36:30 PM
That's true. It's a bit of antagonizing some people around here and as well as some arguments that got way out of hand, but I do think there are people here that do discuss things the right way. I don't think I do, but there are indeed.

It's also a bit of frustration I guess, considering the arguments of the past we had. I'm sorry if I threw a bit of poop to anyone in those, so yeah kinda my fault as well.

But I do believe we can discuss things. We all just want to have fun with the game, after all!

It just takes devs and experienced players working together.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 03, 2016, 05:47:14 PM
volunteers + management FTW!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 03, 2016, 06:41:45 PM
I do think devs should really at least check out here more often

You need to make doing so more productive then. Don't suggest it's a two way thing either - the development team is plenty productive whereas 'discussions' on the forum often aren't.

I'm sorry if I threw a bit of poop to anyone in those, so yeah kinda my fault as well.

You have the right (on the forum at least) to say what you like but don't presume that right extends to requiring to others to listen to you. The two main options for influencing direction are to write code or convince a developer to listen to your idea. The moment it turns aggressive the latter is out of the question.


I have been playing for more than three years, and i know about people that have been playing way more. And in a community as small as this one that's actually quite valuable

It just takes devs and experienced players working together.

Experienced? Less with the king-making. There's a lot of posturing going on in this thread by those who don't contribute to the project but want special status. Development might not be democratic but the forum definitely is - everyone's ideas should have equal weight and nobody should be claiming to represent anyone else.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 04, 2016, 02:30:33 PM
It just takes devs and experienced players working together.

Experienced? Less with the king-making. There's a lot of posturing going on in this thread by those who don't contribute to the project but want special status. Development might not be democratic but the forum definitely is - everyone's ideas should have equal weight and nobody should be claiming to represent anyone else.

I disagree.
It is often pretty clear when opinion comes from an experienced player who actually considers the problems and from a newb who votes for what sounds cool.

Criticism coming from someone who enumerates actual problems with the game, none of the imagined problems, doesn't contain any false fixes or pseudo-criticism ("I like the idea but not the implementation" followed either by a horrible idea or pretending that there is an implementation that is good but being unable to formulate it) instantly deserves more attention than an average post, even if it also contains hostility.

It doesn't mean we should ignore someone for saying something stupid once or always listen to someone who said something smart, but when many people are throwing random ideas without justification, opinions of "game designers" is far more valuable than those of "idea guys".

We, as devs, have implemented some ideas that sucked. Nobody is perfect and nobody can predict how good all the ideas are.
Having more points of view from people who are known to actually watch and not just sit there "what if"ing helps to avoid own biases.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 04, 2016, 05:56:42 PM
this thread seems self explanatory... the one we are currently discussing whithin, but ok we'll jump over to discussing magazines thread instead. I think Magazines might have been handled better if you look at it from a short term perspective. Long term... same difference. The devs knew they would end up with a functional magazine system, they also knew there would be growing pains. That known they could have implemented the no mags mod first and then started working on implementing magazines. That said, you do realize you are playing the experimentals right? So you are a crash test dummy. Sometimes we don't walk away so pretty before problems get solved.

So, it could have been handled better. But at the same time, it never should have become as big of an issue as it did. There was never any ACTUAL reason to raise a fuss over it, other than to go WOAH guys. This is REALLY broken right now, please implement a no mags mod, or just work on it more before you start implementing.

Anything that can be raged about, can better be solved with calm collected minds trying to solve the underlying issues and addressing them.
- When he said "this thread" it was no self-explanatory. To me, he either (A) stated a false fact that I started this thread, which I didn't, or (B) stated that I started a magazine update thread somewhere, of which I have no recollection of.
- We as players cannot know how long an update or a feature addition will take. For all we know, it might take months, and all through that time we'd be forced to deal with the broken ill-matured mechanic. I happen to be a sceptic and a pessimist to some degree, meaning that I wasn't entirely sure the end result would be pleasing anyway.
- I am not a crash test dummy. I am a human being. I have feelings. (said beerbeer with a cold empty stare in his eyes) :D
- I can't remember but I think there were few polite attempts to introduce a "no mags mod", which were either ignored or countered.
- And YES, maybe the update could've been handled better, but it wasn't a disaster. It just looked like one at first. Nothing will ever change that first perception.
- Hoping for a calm or an emotionless debate is an unreasonable wish. First come the calm polite requests, then the volume will be raised, if the subject is important. In the end, moderators can switfly boot out any loud-mouthed maniacs... hopefully after a warning shot. So there has always been a safeguard against raging maniacs.

Um... I think you got that backwards. Good-natured would mean being kind, sensitive, and helpful. Passion is what you can have too much of. Passion is a great thing that drives all of human invention and innovation, but too much blinds people to anything in their way. The rest of your argument in this paragraph seems to support this idea... in that you may be getting too much passion.
I so much hate to say this but WW2 era Germans were good-natured people. They liked to ignore and move on too, and pretend to be blind. That is what I'm getting at here. I have some amount of passion, that much I admit. I absolutely detest the notion that "you should just move on", no matter who says it. Why on earth would anyone give up on a good thing without a verbal fight? One should just leave his country if it takes the first wrong step? One should just disown his parents for the first bad thing they say? One should just walk away from a great game for the first bad feature it sustains? "Shush. Just quietly accept the changes. Just let it happen."

Never. I will speak up.

If you think we should replace Kevin
No. I'm saying anyone could create a new branch, and hence become a branch manager. The branches would be isolated (obviously). Any code contributions would only go to specific branches. Obviously some or most code might be compatible with one or more branches. I can't tell what the consequences would be, but I think 20 years from now it might look like Linux and its copious distros... Is that a good thing or something terrifying? Also, CDDA being less complex than Linux, at most there might be maybe 5 CDDA branches, compared to nine-eleventeen-thousand-too-damn-many Linux distros that exist today.

I am not sure whats up with you Beer beer, but I thought you more reasonable than this. What I am seeing here, frankly terrifies me. Its manipulative, underhanded, trickery. Not only that, but it reeks of the kind of "I CRAVE to be a leader no matter the cost" mindset that destroys good things. Do not take that path.
What is this talk about leadership? I'm a player. Not a coder. I say the things that I say, and if people choose to follow them, or reject them, so be it. In fact, I question your reading comprehension, or the amount of focus you apply. I am sorry if I irk you out, but at the same time it's kind of funny. Now bow before me. :P
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 04, 2016, 06:32:07 PM
I never said, "don't speak up" more... this isn't the right way to do this.

If branching is what your after, I can't say I am comfortable with that, as it would split development several ways and the branches would become increasingly independent and isolated from each other. Not dissimilar from the USbipartisan party that is now becoming increasingly extreme on either side thanks to gerrymandering. With noticable ill effects.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 04, 2016, 07:43:15 PM
I must imagine the difficulty for a dev browsing the forums for feedback, is that meaningful discussion about project management or feature inclusion/removal must be sifted out of threads like this one. Yikes.

Problem: non-contributors are unfamiliar with body of game code to suggest meaningful design choices to devs.
Problem: devs not frequenting the forums are not always able to simplify design or code hurdles in a meaningful way so that non-contributors can provide more meaningful feedback on user-end issues.
Problem: who's job is it to make code problems relatable to non-coders, and find information from forum-problems that is useful to devs?

Am I suggesting such a role? Theoretically yes, but it sounds like an awful job given how intermixed forum-side issues get with game-design related ones.
My point is, this is why StopSignal suggested those who've been around long enough to know game structure and userbase well are an asset. People with familiarity with both user-end and dev-side dynamics can help solve communication problems.

And yes, it's a communication problem if we have non-contributors feeling ignored, voicing this complaint, voicing complaints with features implemented, while the primary dev being mentioned here is not even present.

It is a communication problem if Kevin comes here has to spend more time defending against a ton of discussion for and against him before he can even begin digging through discussion for and against the feature-creep problem (""realism" nerfs") that OP began with. He's not here to do that. He's here to work on the game project's insides as far as I am aware.

Tl;dr this communication gap is why threads like this don't feel any closer to modifying CDDA's design direction in a way that pleases people/devs. Not without way more work than is needed.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 04, 2016, 07:47:49 PM
I volunteer as tribute. Is it suicide, yes. Yes it is, Why? Do I have Any REAL coding experience? No. I am doomed to fail. But I get the gists well enough. DOOOOOOOOOOOMED
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on October 04, 2016, 08:06:17 PM
You dont need 'experience coding' so much as a willingness to look at the code, the ability to (try to) understand it, and have enough ingame experience to know roughly what an otherwise abstract number means.


:o

and I think you do.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 04, 2016, 08:13:29 PM
The theoretical role of forum-github liason is actually best filled by as many users as possible. The more people frequent both github and CDDA forums, the less it feels like we're two islands with one shitty bridge and a lot of yelling.

I agree with Pisskop! I think a good start would be if more non-coders opened up the game files and looked at them. I get it. Code is scary as balls and why read through it if one isn't going to contribute? The thing is, even knowing the shape of the engine under the hood is a boon when two or more people want to talk about it. I will lie in the bed I have made and go code-diving too, after work today.

As a comment on the very opening topic, I really like a gritty realism survival game, but I also know CDDA was intended to be a weird and wacky zombie/combat/adventure/open world sorta-survival game. The granularity of little details I have to track from the onset means the game starts out ridiculously complex and hard to master as a newbie, but once you get it, the game itself feels almost stagnant. Then if you survive until mid-late game, it is stagnant. I forgive this because the game is incomplete, but it is a problem.

We're in a period of gaming where the "story" tends to start out simple and ramp up in complexity as you acquire more items, discover more map, learn more abilities, etc. Even portal with literally a two-function gun managed this by adding in the second portal after a couple levels, as well as adding in increasingly more portalling 'tricks' or puzzle assets.

We kind of have that going on via the crafting menu and vehicles, but a lot of recent features (apologies, my definition of recent is skewed due to a hiatus on my part) seem to be adding more granularity to immediate gameplay - dirty clothes, tracking vitamins and minerals. I saw a suggestion for making car windshields get obscured by dirt/gore - pretty cool, and I think it's in part because vehicles tend to be something you work towards and build up in complexity, rather than an immediate feature you must deal with from Day One Hour One.

There was a proposed change to how book reading and recipe learning works, that relied more on having the items with you and learning things over time, rather than recipes being an asset one earns through sheer-force button spam. That's a good move - again, it creates a sense of increasing game complexity over time instead of front-loading the number of things the player must immediately address.

I still need to read over the game's code structure myself and try to learn more about how it does it's thing. I know my suggestions are more related to game pacing rather than the intricacies of individual features, but it is all I can provide at the moment. I am hoping there is a way to continue to add in new features for players who like complexity of gameplay, without also scaring the shit out of those who haven't been here to "grow along with the game" as it were.

I feel like the above example of 'dirty clothing' versus 'dirty windshield' is a decent example of 'immediately annoying' versus ' only becomes a problem as the player grows'.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on October 04, 2016, 09:03:15 PM
Though I really wish that making that role would be an easy thing, I think it's almost impossible, it would simply be too muddy:
-What is worth showing in the forums and what isn't?
-Is it worth giving attention to something that has just been added to be approved to the game or should we wait for it to be potentially merged? And would that be too late?
-How much of the game's systems should this person know? I, for one, don't know why two vehicles can't go in a single tile, but there is people that do. Those small things are relevant.
-What if this person doesn't consider this change that is about to be merged something good and doesn't talk about it?

It would be hard. I wish it could be easier, I really do.
The only thing I can really do right now is suggest developers to, when checking out a part of the development that might be controversial (that would mean, for example, having a few opposers or maybe this dev itself being the opposer) to show them here. A forum is, ironically, a really bad place to have a discussion, but I do think there are great people around who would surely give a good and fresh point of view in the situation.

It has already happened before, and some good insight in this sea of pages and pages of answers are always given. Specially from the people that make mods and know very well how stuff is done, at least the few I know.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 04, 2016, 09:32:47 PM
code isn't so scary. But github is.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Vorpal2 on October 04, 2016, 10:03:57 PM
I've enjoyed all these features - I never used to use clothing from zombies anyway, due to the idea they were too messy.

I've always assumed all the features since a stable release are WIP and yet to be finalized as it is. Freaking out over how they're currently implemented seems premature and reactionary - as well as a tad bit entitled.

In the end a lot of these changes are entirely subjective as to whether they're better or not. I'm lucky in that what I want from the game has pretty much matched up with what's been happening. I don't even know who the current active devs are.

Not all ideas or opinions are equal - some are more informed than others, some are more in tune with the vision the devs have for what they want. And some are from Lazycat...
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: FrankyPlaysGames on October 04, 2016, 10:21:24 PM
Don't say it's name! It gives it more power!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 05, 2016, 12:38:34 AM
code isn't so scary. But github is.
The overages I got after navigating GitHub.... The overreliance on git shell due to the incomplete GUI, the obscure command needed to selectively pull changes, the unnecessary button clicks needed to update your repo....



Don't say it's name! It gives it more power!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 05, 2016, 04:34:51 AM
code isn't so scary. But github is.
The overages I got after navigating GitHub.... The overreliance on git shell due to the incomplete GUI, the obscure command needed to selectively pull changes, the unnecessary button clicks needed to update your repo....



Don't say it's name! It gives it more power!

I knew it. It IS a scary thing, in a very universal way!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 05, 2016, 10:28:47 AM
-What if this person doesn't consider this change that is about to be merged something good and doesn't talk about it?
I'm a cat and an anarchist when it comes to slinging ideas. I either ponder their potential consequences or not. Often I feel I'm not competent enough to ponder them out loud, so my rants can include an unvoiced wish that says "Help me figure this thing out, for better or worse." And... like... I will say a thousand ideas even if it means 999 of them are bad or irrelevant. Finding the one is all that matters.

I mean... brainstorming is the word.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: gamejunky on October 05, 2016, 12:28:53 PM
A lot of the ideas I see on this forum and on github are ones where the person didn't give even one thought to the consequences they can have to the dynamics of the game.  Majority of them are "It would be neat if..." without much thought put into them, or even worse, they try to justify terrible ideas (for a game) with "but in real life...".

Realism in of itself isn't a bad thing, but it must be justified by what it actually ADDS to game play instead of this backward logic where it's about, trying to justify ideas that have a terrible impact on game play, by "realism" factor.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Firestorm_01 on October 05, 2016, 07:05:44 PM
Hm. I just put it here:
http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13315.0
Quote

Really no comment on this?

I just fixed up and refitted a security van, nothing fancy. It took several hours real time and close to 2 seasons game time. Most of that time was spent doing nothing at all. Literally nothing. Hands off the keyboard, watching the clock tick, 0 interaction with the game.

Whoever is behind this needs to be taken out to the wood shed and shot.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 06, 2016, 05:26:34 AM
Realism in of itself isn't a bad thing, but it must be justified by what it actually ADDS to game play instead of this backward logic where it's about, trying to justify ideas that have a terrible impact on game play, by "realism" factor.

This is a mantra I recall having to beat fellow contributors and devs over the head with, back in my day. Realism needs to add to gameplay, not detract from it.

And to reinforce the pint made back on page 14 (if I recall), we would likewise not have 18 pages of this discussion if the devs kept that in mind.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on October 06, 2016, 06:14:12 AM
This is a mantra I recall having to beat fellow contributors and devs over the head with, back in my day. Realism needs to add to gameplay, not detract from it.

And to reinforce the pint made back on page 14 (if I recall), we would likewise not have 18 pages of this discussion if the devs kept that in mind.

If I spam the C:DDA Design Outline will any dev, specially those that accept PRs, read it?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 07, 2016, 11:49:55 PM
Somehow I doubt that. More likely once Kevin gets back, he'll either lock the thread without addressing any of the valid concerns hidden in this thread, or he'll throw a hissy fit and THEN lock the thread.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 08, 2016, 10:13:17 AM
This is a mantra I recall having to beat fellow contributors and devs over the head with, back in my day

Sorry to break this to you but you were neither a fellow nor a devloper. Kevin ejected you from the project as you were very disruptive for the minimal contributions we received from you. Notoriety is not the same thing as significance. See https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/graphs/contributors and note the enormous number of contributors above your account, none of whom are claiming such a status.

More likely once Kevin gets back, he'll either lock the thread without addressing any of the valid concerns hidden in this thread, or he'll throw a hissy fit and THEN lock the thread.

As Coolthulhu told you earlier:

I now fully remember why Kevin wanted you out. You're doing the exact same thing now as you were back then.
Do you have Asperger's that's making you not realize that bringing up "someone disagreed with me, what a bitch" in unrelated threads is shitty behavior?
It's not even talking back to someone, just going around and saying "you know that dude? he sucks".

So to be clear your contributions have been minimal and you've made yourself unwelcome by multiple developers. There wasn't an option to ban users from Github when Kevin first ejected you from the project but that does exist now if you want to force the issue? Finally stop submitting PR's via third parties (especially given they have introduced bugs that need resolving in further PR's) then using them as an excuse to resurface.

You've effectively had a second and third chance in Kevins absence but you still couldn't improve. Now is the time to leave gracefully.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 08, 2016, 03:33:28 PM
Please take the personal discussion of Random_Dragon's/Kevin's github history elsewhere than this thread. If there's anything to be gleaned from here by devs, this is gonna bury it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 08, 2016, 07:10:52 PM
This is a mantra I recall having to beat fellow contributors and devs over the head with, back in my day

Sorry to break this to you but you were neither a fellow nor a devloper. Kevin ejected you from the project as you were very disruptive for the minimal contributions we received from you. Notoriety is not the same thing as significance. See https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/graphs/contributors and note the enormous number of contributors above your account, none of whom are claiming such a status.

I said fellow contributors and devs. As in contributors (which I was at one point), and devs. Thank you for berating me and making light of the few decent good contributions I made, over the lack of a comma.

To avoid further derailment, I'm taking this to PM.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 09, 2016, 11:24:46 PM
The PM move is appreciated.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 10, 2016, 01:57:06 AM
Assuming Mugling actually bothers to respond.

My point still stands, realism is only good if it compliments gameplay, a concept that seems to have been ignored by far too many contributors.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: deoxy on October 10, 2016, 02:42:41 AM
Assuming Mugling actually bothers to respond.

My point still stands, realism is only good if it compliments gameplay, a concept that seems to have been ignored by far too many contributors.

I like your Arcana mod very much, and I agree with your general point here, but they are right man - give it a rest.  You're not helping yourself - you're alienating even the people that should be on your side.

THINK that first comment, don't post it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 10, 2016, 06:17:22 AM
Sorry. I need to calm down a bit before I get into any further discussions.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 10, 2016, 01:40:47 PM
It occurred to me that maybe CDDA isn't a game anymore. It's a work of art. Same as DF, just bit more collaborative in nature (being open source). That's why we might see these less-functional additions. I mean, it's a vague theory that attempts to explain some of the phenomena in games in general.

> be an open source game
> be loved
> transcend into art
> mutate and cross the threshold into art
> be controversial
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 10, 2016, 01:51:06 PM
It's art in the same way my drawings are perpetually a work in progress, never quite finished. It's possible to overwork traditional art until you're past the point of 'perfect', and that definition is different for literally everybody. Everybody gets something different out of the same piece, too. So, yeah. In that sense I think it bears resemblance.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 10, 2016, 02:08:23 PM
It occurred to me that maybe CDDA isn't a game anymore

We are definitely writing a game
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 11, 2016, 12:35:25 AM
Anyone heard of EA? Electronic Arts. They had a credo once, before they forgot about it and listened to too many bean counters. Anyways, they make games, and considered themselves artists struggling to showcase how games matter. They've fallen a long way (while growing) since then, but I would argue that games on the whole have transcended art, and become engineering. Due to their practical nature, which art does not. As my disappointing  attempt to start a career in Architecture/Engineering showed me. Granted, entertainment is not normally much of anything other than an art form. But "true" art usually only serves to intrigue or provoke thought, not entertain.

Hmm... no that's not right either.... Eh whatever, someone please help me remember what I was trying to say here. I lost track somewhere in there.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on October 11, 2016, 12:57:07 AM
EA Sports - Get in the Game.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pandromidal on October 11, 2016, 02:04:06 AM
Can't say I've read the whole thread. So sorry if I'm rehashing a bunch of stuff that was already said.

From my point of view there's a lot of improvements that have been made in the game, that I feel like people are forgetting about. We have better item stacking. The menu for trading with npcs is better and better looking than it was before. Arrow crafting doesn't have all of those annoying middle steps that it used to have. There are musical instruments. There is a repeat until success/failure option for repairing items. NPCs can help you with crafting and construction. You can use bandages on your NPCs. NPCs heal when they sleep. There's more vehicles, more houses, more zombie types. Wander spawn are working. Zombies mutate into scarier zombies over time. The list goes on and on.

Part of the reason I took a break from cdda was because I felt like there was such a push for realism over good gameplay, but coming back that's not how I feel things have progressed. I see a lot of hard work done that I genuinely appreciate. Sure, it' not perfect, but there's enough improvements that I wouldn't want to go back to 0.C. I think it's easy to focus on the negative and disregard all of the real improvements that have been made.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 11, 2016, 02:39:21 AM
Thanks for helping steer us back to the root of the topic, and also making a really solid case for the flip-side of this situation. We (imo) could still really do with an overarching story or sense of big-picture player progression and some very-clear endgame goals/content, but there's been a lot of good come about this past year that can be easy to overlook when there are glaring frustrations in one's way.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: billygg on October 11, 2016, 03:13:41 AM
The game really has been made much easier to play. That kind of interface improvement can't be glamorous to work on, but I really appreciate it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Taberone on October 13, 2016, 02:37:35 PM
Is it me, or are the equip times a little backwards compared to reality? It doesn't take too long for me to pull out a binder or textbook from my backpack since they're immediately visible and easy to grab, but it does take slightly longer to dig through my backpack for specific smaller items(Pencils/Erasers/Pens/Highlighters/Etc), since I have a good amount of them.

I'm guessing that the equip times are for some sort of balance against carrying a ton of guns with spare ammo and insta-switching to them once the gun you're using runs dry, though. I know I've done that a ton of times.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on October 13, 2016, 08:53:57 PM
maybe total volume used should affect wield time?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 14, 2016, 01:53:58 AM
objects % of total volume? With smaller increasing wield/find time? No... that seems really obnoxious. Maybe claim smaller objects are kept in alt pocket(s)? and leave it the way it is? Or increase time penalty for small objects in low-light?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on October 14, 2016, 02:11:38 AM
Well, a well organized and unclutter backpack is easy to use.  Its easier to get smaller things from a bag when you know where it is.

I am suggesting that the more crap we stuff into a backpack, the harder it will be to take out other things.


In fact, maybe a good trait would be [organized] and [disorganized].  which increase or decrease wielding times by a percentage.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 14, 2016, 02:18:33 AM
makes sense. But, is it a sign we shouldn't since the idea came from this thread?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on October 14, 2016, 02:20:28 AM
Nope.

Its gameplay.  All gameplay.  How many times do you switch weapons in combat?  A lot like me?


Besides, this thread is a sign that we need more things with arbitrary values attatched.  Less realism for more doomrl action.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 14, 2016, 02:22:48 AM
:P
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: jcd on October 14, 2016, 08:42:10 AM
Well, a well organized and unclutter backpack is easy to use.  Its easier to get smaller things from a bag when you know where it is.

I am suggesting that the more crap we stuff into a backpack, the harder it will be to take out other things.


In fact, maybe a good trait would be [organized] and [disorganized].  which increase or decrease wielding times by a percentage.

I believe this is the "right" kind of realism.
That's because the implementation does not add more clicks or inconvenience to use this feature. The game does the calculations on its own, while the player only decides to wield or not wield something. (and need not even know about the existence of this)

Not that i view it as a major point, but it could fit it well with a new backpack attribute, "base time to access" that would represent how easy/hard it is to organize stuff well, so that you can draw them out quickly at will.

Then again, it does not have much added value to the game i guess. Still that's how to implement 'realism' stuff - Make them not to need much additional player input.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on October 14, 2016, 10:20:45 AM
The game really has been made much easier to play. That kind of interface improvement can't be glamorous to work on, but I really appreciate it.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Stormlock on October 14, 2016, 11:01:55 AM
Yeah, I came back after a long break (since around when the last main release happened) and the improvements to the UI are impressive. Tasks that used to be incredibly tedious, like reading books or repairing/fitting/practicing on equipment, are now pretty much painless. Encumbrance has been improved a lot, scarves no longer gimp your movement speed, and there are several new enemy types that keep things interesting (and probably a lot more I've yet to find.)

The game is in a pretty good place right now, and feels very polished. There's a few annoying bugs and some issues with skill progression being awkward at low levels, but it's leagues ahead of the old days of spam reading a chemistry book for 15 minutes hoping it'll give you the one recipe you actually need from it, automatically being a dodge god after like 2 days of fighting zombies, being utterly crippled with grief over killing like 2 zombies kids, or becoming a mutagen crafting expert chemist by boiling 50 gallons of water next to a river.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: gamejunky on October 15, 2016, 09:41:51 AM
From my point of view there's a lot of improvements that have been made in the game, that I feel like people are forgetting about. We have better item stacking. The menu for trading with npcs is better and better looking than it was before. Arrow crafting doesn't have all of those annoying middle steps that it used to have. There are musical instruments. There is a repeat until success/failure option for repairing items. NPCs can help you with crafting and construction. You can use bandages on your NPCs. NPCs heal when they sleep. There's more vehicles, more houses, more zombie types. Wander spawn are working. Zombies mutate into scarier zombies over time. The list goes on and on.

Those are all examples of good game design changes.  All of those changes improved the game play.  Not just improved it, but did so substantially from before they existed.  None of those are what could be considered "realism nerfs" (which is a bit of a subjective term) to me and really further proves the point of how "realism" is a double-edged sword of where it can enhance or hinder game play depending on how well it is pulled off.  Some realism is good, but not when it makes game play feel more tedious and time wasting.  For example the changes that were added to vehicle repair times where if you bumped into a shrub you get to waste a whole day fixing the damage (maybe a bit of an embellishment, but you get the point) is a good example of "bad realism" for a game.  At the same time you want vehicles to take a certain amount of wear over time to encourage careful driving and to maintain certain limits where the game would quit presenting a challenge.

To me a good indicator of when you have a "bad realism" feature is when it starts to make a game feel more like you're enduring druge-work instead of playing.  It's fine that there is upkeep and it's an important part of the game, but there is a good balance in there somewhere.  I mean if all you do is hack and slash without upkeep then it becomes tedious like an action game, but if you have to spend too much time supporting the ability to hack, slash, explore, and progress then it feels more like a work/chore simulator at some point.  This is often when you start hearing the term "grind" coined.  I mean really any RPGlike game has some amount of "grinding", but if they got it right, it never is perceived as "grinding" because the pacing was on the mark.  Or another way to think of it, they're best when they have a good balance of combat and non-combat activities driven along by some need to do both a certain amount, otherwise their is no point to them.  It's not easy to get the work  (e.g., the amount of eating, drinking, and crafting you must do in order to support your survival and progression in the game) vs. reward tuned just perfectly that it is always fun to the player.  There will be players that like more the upkeep aspects than others, but at the same time there ideally  is still reward for them if they want to do more than necessary to maintain.  They get ahead of the "survival curve" as a result and it pays off in other ways (i.e., it becomes more a question of play style and strategy in tackling the overall game).  So somewhere there is a happy balance of what is required upkeep to just merely maintain basic progression throughout the game, and extra time put above that still has its rewards (like "extra credit").  It's not easy finding those sweet spots, but it is more revealed through extensive play by players as it becomes clearer how things work out in practice.

On a side note:  The main thing that really bugged me about the extended vehicle repair times was that it wasn't very turn-based.  It actually made the player sit there and wait in real time.  In a turn-based game game time should never influence how much real time must pass. It simply instantly fast-forwards to the moment of completion (maybe pausing for player input if any important events come up in the process) and your cost is how many days, hours, minutes of game time had to passed to reach completion and the effects it has on resources etc.  Though someone explained to me that the real-time waiting was more of an unintended side-effect of keeping track of and playing out events in the reality bubble (i.e., processing time for playing the "turns" of anything going on it).
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on October 15, 2016, 09:51:07 AM
The work you encounter in a game just needs to be fun.

And what is perceived as fun differs from person to person.

Take me. There is no feature that has been added to the game ever that i did perceive as tedium.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: gamejunky on October 15, 2016, 10:08:14 AM
maybe total volume used should affect wield time?

Think of the implications (which is what should always be done with ideas).  This means the fuller your inventory, the more risk added if you encounter a situation where you have to switch weapons.  In turn that means on top of the being limited by what containers you can scrounge/craft (and str requirements) to how long you can do a single run, you've got to take into consideration the extra risk implied of filling up your volume to capacity.  This makes the player have to decide if they'd rather accept heightened risk or having to run back and forth more times between looting location and their stash.  This has an effect on the dynamics of game play and balance.  So this will likely trigger having to rebalance other aspects to keep it from becoming an irritating feature.  Then after all of that work is done, what did it really add to the game other than more realism?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: §k on October 15, 2016, 01:21:32 PM
When it does not require excessive repeated key pressing, realism is acceptable.

If, for example, when you input #repaircar, your @ starts working, until he is hungry, and then drinks protein shake from his waterskin and resumes, until he is tired, and then sleeps and wakes up and resumes, until the car is fully repaired, then the tedium becomes an interesting thing to watch.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on October 15, 2016, 01:51:10 PM
Well that sounds like improvement :D
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 15, 2016, 04:51:38 PM
None of those are what could be considered "realism nerfs" (which is a bit of a subjective term) to me and really further proves the point of how "realism" is a double-edged sword of where it can enhance or hinder game play depending on how well it is pulled off.

This. See earlier point about realism and its need to add to gameplay.

There have been a shitton of improvements since the last stable build, and many realism-focused features that actually benefit players (hell, that was the objective behind many of my contributions). Problem is there are also many instances of realism additions detracting from gameplay.

Worse is when you implement a realism feature and get it wrong, or fudge it a bit due to gameplay reasons. This is fine if the end result (say it with me) compliments gameplay, but badly-implemented realism is more grating if it isn't even realistic.

This goes a long way towards explaining why the filthy clothing and vitamin got cited as shining examples of how not to add features. It wasn't bad enough that they added tedium, or micromanagement, or whatever. It was that they also added inconsistencies and breaks from reality and thus became an example of Misaimed Realism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedRealism)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 15, 2016, 05:47:38 PM
That's a confounding argument. Those aren't related subsystems and people do hold differing opinions about them. Vitamins are still being actively discussed (mostly calcium balance) and are designed to give the food crafting system more depth than the traditional cataclysm diet of oatmeal cooked with toilet water.

I think this thread has probably no run it's course. There isn't anything new being added here. As previously pointed out by a multiple authors there have been considerable improvements in the last 6 months and overall the project is in better shape. The core mechanics (aiming, melee, dodging) are all being improved on along with the UI and game internals. Everyone has a differing opinion about what constitutes 'realism' and whether this is a good or bad thing and indeed presence of the word at all has often become a sign the meaningful discussion has stalled.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 15, 2016, 06:47:36 PM
I'm not sure if the vitamin system can be done right.
It has more than just roots in realism and the only gameplay purpose is "make diet less bland".

I recall other games doing it by categories. If you fulfill enough categories it's OK, otherwise you get penalties.
Categories could be grains, vegetables, meat. 2 categories would be enough to avoid the penalty.
Or extended version: grains, vegetables, meat, nuts, dairy. 3 categories needed to avoid penalty.

Of course this would require some pigeonholing and edge cases, but that would still end up simpler than current system, without taking away its gameplay implications.

Tracking all vitamins separately is certainly realistic, but realism never adds to gameplay. It can make the game more flavorful and intuitive, but the best realism can do to gameplay is not making it worse.
Realism is inherently a limitation.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on October 15, 2016, 06:51:02 PM
nah.

We have something that works okay for now.  The real limitation on vitamins is that of having to make a foodstuff equal portions of its constituent materials.

i.e.
      a cheeseburger is bread, meat, cheese.

Well, its ceertainly not 33% cheese, 33% meat, and 33% bread.


We cant make every item have its own relative nutrition (we could, buuut), so we should be fine with a simplified nutritional system

Id like to start compiling acceptable penalties (weighed towards gameplay than realism) and applying them to my own mod to test it out.  But I am a little alzy
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 15, 2016, 07:00:41 PM
I'd rather work on finishing our existing system as opposed to writing something new from scratch (which would probably be the same except with different names for the stats), We need to move away from all the definitions being dependent on item materials though as that's a little too limiting.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 15, 2016, 07:28:40 PM
Tracking all vitamins separately is certainly realistic, but realism never adds to gameplay. It can make the game more flavorful and intuitive, but the best realism can do to gameplay is not making it worse.
Realism is inherently a limitation.

There are instances were realism can make things better. There are a lot of potential instances where the player is limited by some in-game restriction and goes "hey wait a minute, my life would be so much easier if I could do X, like in real life" and such.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 15, 2016, 07:42:13 PM
We have something that works okay for now.

Nope
It is only "working" in the sense that it is incredibly lenient and thus not achieving the intended purpose.
Meaning it isn't working.

I'd rather work on finishing our existing system

I'm not sure if it can ever be finished.
Oatmeal+water may be bland, but adding vitamins to fix that wasn't a good idea in retrospect. They turned into a bigger problem than bland optimal food.

Basing them on real life ones was an error here. Real life is horribly designed, tedious and anti-fun.
Could possibly be salvaged by picking a select 2-3 of them and focusing on those.

The problem with bland food mostly results from the fact that acquiring large quantities of food is currently an activity that takes more keypresses that thought.
Vitamins didn't change that, they only made it so that instead of going to forest, farm or swamp and doing mindless activity in one of them, you do it in 2-3.
In realism vs gameplay, vitamins are all realism.

There are instances were realism can make things better. There are a lot of potential instances where the player is limited by some in-game restriction and goes "hey wait a minute, my life would be so much easier if I could do X, like in real life" and such.

Inspiration is not realism, just like planes are not replicas of birds.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 15, 2016, 07:46:02 PM
No, I disagree. We only have 5 vitamins and it makes sense to use real-world names rather than arbitrary ones as they player already has some intuition that you can expect to find vitamin C in fruit. The issue is balancing the vitamins so that the player has new goals - for example raiding ants nests for eggs (calcium).
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 15, 2016, 08:03:19 PM
Inspiration is not realism, just like planes are not replicas of birds.

Okay, bad example. :V

My point is really just that a gameplay mechanic can still be both realistic and fun, or that a realistic addition can be actually well-thought-out and good for gameplay.

Though the fact that even you're now pessimistic about whether realism can mesh with gameplay speaks volumes for how the attitude towards realism in CDDA has changed since I used to contribute. ;w;
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 15, 2016, 09:08:15 PM
The issue is balancing the vitamins so that the player has new goals - for example raiding ants nests for eggs (calcium).

For as long as we balance those things against realism with ideas like eating a bunch of ground bones to bump calcium (which makes perfect sense IRL), it will end up naturally exploitable.
And if we bump the required numbers enough to make the diet varied, there will be complaints like "2 weeks for full scurvy? that's not how it works IRL".
And it has to be short in the game. Otherwise scavenging will fulfill all the needs, thus making the mechanic redundant. We don't need to punish the farmers, they punish themselves enough.

Maybe if those requirements were graded in a more gamey way it could work. For example, if you go overboard with calcium and proteins, you get fast regen instead of hypervitaminosis.
Or if you could extract vitamins from food with a magitech tool that lets you consume bland goop that satisfies all needs and only notes once in a while "store of calcium in goopmaker is too low".

Our food UI is pretty horrible and we don't have a good graded display which would show what to eat to remove current health problems.

My point is really just that a gameplay mechanic can still be both realistic and fun, or that a realistic addition can be actually well-thought-out and good for gameplay.

It can, but realism is always a burden. Depending on mechanic, realism may make perfect sense (driving could probably work with realism rather well, except for random swerving) and thus come "for free", or be in direct opposition (sniping ranges vs. reality bubble).
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Stormlock on October 15, 2016, 10:28:43 PM
Vitamins seem like an odd choice to add as a mechanic to me- food is simply too plentiful for it to really matter. Even if you're a ravenous carnivore, you'll still do fine by just cooking up spiders or wildlife and scavenging for chicken noodle soup. I'm running a character that can't eat veggies or fruit and I still have far more canned food than I need, even in a world modded to be mostly in ruins. And frankly that character eats better than I do IRL- I'm a miser that eats mostly cheap junkfood, ramen, pasta, etc. I don't have scurvy. It being a serious risk for someone with 20 types of canned food and a steady supply of fresh meat would be pretty silly.

Would make more sense for food to be more scarce instead. Especially as time goes on. But really it's just not that interesting a problem for the long term. Food is always going to be far easier to find than things like endgame character upgrades, equipment, etc. So once you can find yourself the rare stuff, finding common things like food and clothing will be utterly trivial.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SenorOcho on October 16, 2016, 02:19:09 AM
In fact, maybe a good trait would be [organized] and [disorganized].  which increase or decrease wielding times by a percentage.

I would think this would be a good replacement for the traits that increase/decrease total volume, rather than a call for new ones.


On nutrition:
I don't know how many involved with development have played it, but maybe something closer to UnReal World's system might be workable?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: deoxy on October 16, 2016, 02:29:37 AM
For as long as we balance those things against realism with ideas like eating a bunch of ground bones to bump calcium (which makes perfect sense IRL), it will end up naturally exploitable.
And if we bump the required numbers enough to make the diet varied, there will be complaints like "2 weeks for full scurvy? that's not how it works IRL".
And it has to be short in the game. Otherwise scavenging will fulfill all the needs, thus making the mechanic redundant. We don't need to punish the farmers, they punish themselves enough.

The problem, as I've pointed out several times, is that most serious vitamin problems are, historically speaking, actually HARD to get - that is, people generally avoided them BY ACCIDENT.

Scurvy, for example - it was essentially classified as a sailor's disease, because that's the only time people actually got it, and they didn't even know what caused it!

Sure, it would be BETTER for you to have just the right mix, but it takes serious "only eat one thing" dedication to get real problems.

If you're trying to avoid "bland late game food", having something that happens if you live on ONLY a certain type of diet for a long time isn't a bad idea (live on ONLY cooked meat products, yes, you eventually get scurvy), but one other food product every week ought to be sufficient, generally speaking.

Make it so you need at least one meat product and one vegetable/fruit product each week, and bam, you're 90% there.  Anything else gets silly REAL fast.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 16, 2016, 03:28:49 AM
Make it so you need at least one meat product and one vegetable/fruit product each week, and bam, you're 90% there.  Anything else gets silly REAL fast.

That's the problem: it adds nothing to the game.
If you're eating bland food, you're probably at the point in game where you can easily eat varied food, just don't want to bother because it's a lot of extra checking and keypressing.
And to make it matter, we'd need to make it so that you need to be trying to avoid it. And that would make it unrealistic, since scurvy in 3 days is not how it happens IRL. And also seasonal problems, where winters and springs would be scurvy time because you can't get vitC.

It's a clear case of realism vs gameplay. And vitamins are all realism, no gameplay. And because of how they're designed, changing them to gameplay would ruin the realism part.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rot on October 16, 2016, 04:15:05 AM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or anything but vitamins imo aren't really that bad, it just needs some serious rebalancing.

I think the rate on vitamin loss should be calculated by how long your seasons are, for example a person with 91 day seasons will have a slower vitamin/mineral loss then someone with 14 day seasons.

Anyway if also like to mention the distinction between fat-soluble vs water-soluble vitamins.

From what I have gathered, vitamin C, and B12 is water soluble while vitamin A is fat soluble.
Calcium acts like a fat-soluble vitamin, meaning that it tends to stay in the body longer and act as a slow release type of deal. I believe iron is the same way.

However you can still have a years worth of B12 in your liver (I'm assuming it would stay so providing you have a sedimentary lifestyle) and even vitamin C deficiency takes a couple months to kick in.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: PoeSalesman on October 16, 2016, 07:44:43 AM
I see nothing good in vitamins. When I'm doing well on food, I generally have a variety already, which I suppose was meant to be the challenge there? But all that does is require me to pay attention to random messages since vitamins are hidden and deal with the tedium of blindly balancing them, which takes no effort. When I'm doing poorly on food I already deal with starvation, which is far enough balance as far as I'm concerned, all the vitamin balancing and associated penalties are nothing more than insult to injury since I'm already suffering for doing a poor job with resource gathering.

Is this just meant to be a feature to make ant mounds valuable? I hear them come up a lot while discussing vitamins. Why not add something interesting to them other than just plain boring eggs? I can just beat around the woods or find a spider house (which are by far more common than ants in any game I've played, many have had zero in the starting area or 10 or so surrounding large towns) to get some if I really need them. Just about every other unique map feature has some sort of rare loot that can show up.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 16, 2016, 11:30:37 AM
Realism shouldn't really come into it. Good gameplay is what matters. Our current implementation of guns is based upon reality but isn't realistic. Like I said earlier it's become a watch word, eg. 'I don't like this idea - ITS UNREALISTIC'.  The reverse also occurs where people defend bad gameplay as realistic. Such selective application of the word is unhelpful.

Vitamins need adjustments to rate and availability to become good gameplay - realism has very little significance in that process.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 16, 2016, 01:07:57 PM
Vitamin system needs:
- blood analysis to check the levels
- minor bonuses for covering all vitamins: +1 INT, +1 PER, +50% Focus recovery speed, -50% Focus loss speed, other positive changes to Focus formula (pick one or more). Could come as a status effect such as "Healthy Diet". When it goes away, you'll know you're already "missing" something.
- viewable backlog of consumed food items?
- overall less food in the world; food is too abundant with default item drop rates
- less overall vitamin content; not all of ingested vitamins gets absorbed
- possible unknowability to vitamin deficiency conditions without proper medical/survival skills or a special nutritional guide; the player is just described the scurvy symptoms instead of telling that it's early stage of scurvy
- specialized vitamin pills or less effective multivitamins, just to provide more control to the player
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on October 16, 2016, 01:46:30 PM
Vitamin system needs:

^ these sort of posts are of much greater value. Those that point out specific flaws are also good.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: wad67 on October 16, 2016, 02:47:38 PM
I'd just like to chime in and say that I am in agreeance with the fact that game play has gotten worse over time.

Perhaps if there was a branch off, Personally I'd like to see the removal of a lot of 'features' and bloat that has accumulated.
What I have noticed is that a lot of the devs are taking the middle ground, so to speak and implementing options to enable or disable features. This is great, however the options menu is filling up rather fast. Not to mention mod options, world options, etc.
This could be a really nice game, but it needs some serious reworking, refactoring and polishing.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: User on October 16, 2016, 03:09:25 PM
does anyone have a patch that fixes the timescale for vitamins and preferably also skill rust to months instead of days or can someone tell me which file i can find the algorithms in?

Quote
I think the rate on vitamin loss should be calculated by how long your seasons are
well, your metabolism doesn't change just because you move from earth to mars, but i guess it makes sense balance-wise if you are into farming.
wouldn't force it upon players though.

PS: i thought about why someone would create a vitamin requirements system that is as broken as the one in cata and the most logical explanation i could come up with was that some dev is getting paid by an alliance of vitamin producers.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on October 16, 2016, 03:48:52 PM
One thing I don't understand of the vitamin system, is what was the idea behind the vitamins mechanic? What was its intended purpose? In what way it would benefit the gameplay?

Why it wasn't first abstracted into something like "nutrients"?

Having a general "nutrients" along with "food", would make it more intuitive for the player and easier to balance, as simple meals would have "food" value and a low "nutrient" value, while complex meals made with several ingredients would give more "nutrients".
That would: add another layer of complexity, encourage cooking meals and not just live by chunks of meat, encourage scavenging for cans of food/veggies in the wild/eggs/etc for making complex meals and overall would feel more natural, intuitive and logic. And even punish farmers for growing low nutrition value simple foods, encouraging them to either plant a hell of a lot more crops or scavenge/hunt for additional nutrients in their diet.

In one hand you have the "food" that is just fuel for the body, and in other you have "nutrients" that are needed to have the body work properly.

Whereas going down with the "vitamins" you need to pick a group of them, as you can't possibly have all vitamins humans can't make (unless you want to turn CDDA into a Tamagochi game), assign them to each food item, and balance all them. Plus the extra work for the player of having to manage vitamin levels, which food gives what vitamins and in how much quantity, without going past hypervitaminated.

Even from a "realistic" point of view, you normally aren't taking test to check your vitamin levels, or checking what types of food you eat to get what types of vitamin, unless you are some kind of healthnut person eating activated almonds and kelp noodles.
So even from the "realistic" point of view, how the vitamin system is implemented is not even realistic.

And overall the vitamin system(like the dirty cloth items) only really makes the early game harder, and doesn't add much but in my opinion a tedium needless micromanaging in mid and late game.

I would advise again to review the CDDA Design Outline (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LhNpXGXmkPOxp_cp0-c9G7xqnihwApq-eZSa99exfcU/edit?pli=1), as a reminder that CDDA is not a hardcore-realistic-simulator.


Also, here's a link (http://greatist.com/health/ultimate-guide-vitamins-and-minerals) to a list of vitamins humans need and how much of them daily, if you are interested in the hardcore-realistic-simulation.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: survivornaginata on October 16, 2016, 05:18:04 PM
I never had problems with vitamins.when deficent i in rare cases i pop up some multivitamin i am sure to find up to that point in game.i dont micromanage and watch food by food for vitamin intake.if i lask vitamins c/a i eat fruits/vegetables for others meat.and as i eat vegetable/meat diet in game i dont seem to deve;op problem so much to get message i am blind/have scurvy.
only problems which seem to be ednemic is calcium which diet dont seem to satisfiy as only calcium rich foods are mill/bones which are not part of usual diet in cata.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Malaxxor on October 16, 2016, 05:50:00 PM
...

Your suggestions are already a step in the right direction, but all things considered, it wouldn't really help to allievate the root problem: That there's one type of food that is just plain better than everything else. Without a vitamin system (or something else that would encourage a more varied diet), players will tend to focus on the 'cheaper' foods like cooked oatmeal. With your suggestions, they would instead favor the more 'elaborate' foods, eschewing the cheaper ones whenever possible. This is bad because either way, a large amount of the cooking recipes become obsolete really fast.

In my opinion, there are two things that need to be done to make this whole thing work. First of all, there needs to be some system that emulates nutrition to force the player to keep a varied diet. While low-level cooking recipes would (in general) offer relatively few nutritients, higher-level food would (generally) have a higher and more balanced nutritional value in addition to other benefits (like preserving vitamins in non-perishable food).

At the same time, the acsessability of those higher-level recipes would need to be restrained, mostly by making it harder to find/produce high-level food (which isn't to say that some food needs to be easier or more availabe, like milk). As it stands, food isn't really a concern after the first few days. Hell, even then the biggest problem is finding the right tools to cook, ingredients are plentyful. This would create a situation in which the player would either A) rely on low-level food and accept the disadvantage that this would bring or B) go out of his way to ensure a balanced diet and reap the benefits of it. It goes without saying that the disadvantages of a bad diet shouldn't be too harsh. After all, you don't get brittle bones just because you didn't drink your milk for a few days. On the other hand, following a balanced diet should get you boni that are worth it, to encourage the players to do so.

This would both satisfy the demands from the 'gameplay' faction - as it would offer the player a choice on how to approach the problem - as well as the 'realism' faction as it would be modeled after reality (at least, roughly). The whole system really isn't inherently bad - it's just that it's badly thought out at the moment. And that is a problem the game has as of late...

Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: PoeSalesman on October 17, 2016, 04:31:32 AM
Realism shouldn't really come into it. Good gameplay is what matters. Our current implementation of guns is based upon reality but isn't realistic. Like I said earlier it's become a watch word, eg. 'I don't like this idea - ITS UNREALISTIC'.  The reverse also occurs where people defend bad gameplay as realistic. Such selective application of the word is unhelpful.

Vitamins need adjustments to rate and availability to become good gameplay - realism has very little significance in that process.
But what do they add to the gameplay? Like I said in the above post, I don't see what they actually add, because there are already penalties for doing a poor job with food, and that when you're doing well on food you generally don't have vitamin issues at all, or you only have vitamin issues because you haven't been paying attention to the invisible meters. What does that actually add?

From all your replies I get the feeling that you're only interested in finding some way to tweak vitamins, but you're not open at all to the idea that maybe they just aren't a good idea. I feel that the devs need to be able to consider that sometimes a feature just does not work in any form.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 17, 2016, 10:27:47 AM
Vitamin system might be funnier if all the vitamin stats of foods were hidden... Could make a great jawdropper for fresh players. Then remove the "no vitamins" mod, because it would give away their presence. Edit1: Actually.. well.. I mean, I don't want to force the vitamin system on anyone, so I find my thoughts to be in conflict. Edit2: Actually leave the "no vitamins" mod. So what if it hints that vitamin intake is to be considered. In case of deficiency, players would have to do some online research or file-diving to determine what they should eat. Probably not a bad thing.
But what do they add to the gameplay?
What does vitamin system add to the game?

What does nutrition add to the game?
What does hydration add to the game?
What does health / immune system add to the game?
What does clothing and warmth add to the game?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 17, 2016, 10:41:18 AM
I think the rate on vitamin loss should be calculated by how long your seasons are, for example a person with 91 day seasons will have a slower vitamin/mineral loss then someone with 14 day seasons.
This wouldn't work because you still have to eat the same amount every day. You would either get too much or too little vitamins... Unless... the food vitamin content was scaled as well...?
Edit: Also, food drop rates would have to be scaled as well. I've been yammering about this before... that item drop rates shouldn't fall under one universal item drop rate setting.
Short seasons + default item drops = plenty of food to go around.

- - -

Another problem with CDDA and the nutrient system is that there is unrealistic (too high) food variety. Grapes? Oranges? Pears? I doubt they'd grow in NE. Food spoilage times are also unrealistic (too long). They're also inconsistent - spoilage times are measured in days but also seasons, depending on the food. Also: reality bubble and time stasis. And generally games don't really last that long that food availability would become a serious concern. Canned food should last 2+ years. Who plays 2-year games with the same character? Not very many, I think. There are also foods that NEVER spoil.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: deoxy on October 17, 2016, 09:20:59 PM
I think the rate on vitamin loss should be calculated by how long your seasons are, for example a person with 91 day seasons will have a slower vitamin/mineral loss then someone with 14 day seasons.
This wouldn't work because you still have to eat the same amount every day. You would either get too much or too little vitamins... Unless... the food vitamin content was scaled as well...?
Edit: Also, food drop rates would have to be scaled as well. I've been yammering about this before... that item drop rates shouldn't fall under one universal item drop rate setting.
Short seasons + default item drops = plenty of food to go around.

- - -

Another problem with CDDA and the nutrient system is that there is unrealistic (too high) food variety. Grapes? Oranges? Pears? I doubt they'd grow in NE. Food spoilage times are also unrealistic (too long). They're also inconsistent - spoilage times are measured in days but also seasons, depending on the food. Also: reality bubble and time stasis. And generally games don't really last that long that food availability would become a serious concern. Canned food should last 2+ years. Who plays 2-year games with the same character? Not very many, I think. There are also foods that NEVER spoil.

I play 3-5 years fairly regularly.  Any food that last longer than a few months is just given "forever", and that's close enough for the vast majority of people.

In a real apocalypse (say, a plague that killed 95%+ of people) there would be PLENTY of food for a long time, simply living on canned goods.  Survival gets hard when that runs out, because the people that know how to make more are all dead.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 17, 2016, 10:27:12 PM
They're also inconsistent - spoilage times are measured in days but also seasons, depending on the food.

That's just display, the actual rot time shouldn't chance if you have different timed seasons.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: User on October 18, 2016, 08:46:43 AM
i think in recent experimentals food spoils even when you are away.
you can still make meat jerky and powdered milk out of it though. no idea why this is the case, i'd expect all food to have a isPerished bool that gets set to true when the timer runs out or if it is made from rotten food.
also i would add a "would you really like to use XYZ (rotten)" message.
but maybe in the time where c:dda takes place people just got used to eating heavily processed rotten meat thanks to awesome free trade agreements like TTIP, CETA, TPP, and those that are responsible for much of the suffering in africa.
or maybe in the future people are immune to toxins and can only get sick from bacteria.

Quote
One thing I don't understand of the vitamin system, is what was the idea behind the vitamins mechanic? What was its intended purpose? In what way it would benefit the gameplay?
I would like to know the rationale behind it too because i don't think my vitamin-pharma-conspiracy is 100% correct.
can someone post a link to where whoever introduced it explains his decision and why a few days without milk erode your bones, ignoring the fact that two motherfucking thirds of humans can't drink milk and most of them don't cook bone broth either?

Quote
What does nutrition add to the game?
What does hydration add to the game?
What does health / immune system add to the game?
What does clothing and warmth add to the game?
You would probably have to ask a game designer about the reasons, but those things are things that people actually want.
People mod their morrowind to add those requirements (immune system and warmth are brilliant ideas, gotta check out if those already exist).
People don't mod their game to add a requirement to pee and poop regularly and wipe their bums with comfy toilet paper, because that's just annoying.

While i don't condemn having it optionally for people who want their video games to feel like a second job it shouldn't be part of main game unless there are some really good reasons or lots of people want it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 18, 2016, 08:59:02 AM
you can still make meat jerky and powdered milk out of it though. no idea why this is the case, i'd expect all food to have a isPerished bool that gets set to true when the timer runs out or if it is made from rotten food.

It's mostly an UI problem that results from a technical problem, which can't be fixed without running into a performance problem. I'm pretty sure my latest PR will fix the performance problem, so that we could get to fixing the technical problem and then the UI problem will be easy.

The UI problem is that we can't easily (for technical reasons) let the player pick rotten/non-rotten ingredients.
In many cases it makes sense to use the rotten ingredient - for example to craft things that won't be eaten, will be eaten by a mutant who doesn't care or when the rot effect would be too weak to matter.
We can't just pass the rotten flag without a check, because food can easily rot during craft and jerky has a long craft time and because it's often hard to tell which food items will be used for crafting.

So we need that rotten/non-rotten check on the UI.

Good news is that a proper fix for this will also allow easily passing around different kinds of data, for example allowing human flesh in recipes that weren't specifically written as cannibalistic, but without losing the cannibalism flag. In this case trying to craft with human flesh would inform the player that the new food item would be cannibalistic. Same for poisonous meat.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 18, 2016, 09:55:36 AM
While i don't condemn having it optionally for people who want their video games to feel like a second job it shouldn't be part of main game unless there are some really good reasons or lots of people want it.
- That's actually a fair point although at the time I don't recall many people opposing the addition. It wasn't highly requested either. I think most of us just watched curiously.
- The ease of addition may have been a factor. The biggest work may have been just researching and adding the vitamin contents of the various foods and meals.
- I personally at one point pointed out that no other game has detailed nutrient system, so, uhhh, I'm not sure if that triggered something...
- Obviously the system didn't turn out universally welcomed, hence "no vitamins" mod came (or is it "no nutrients"?). It's debatable if the element should come as an optional "vitamins mod" or "no vitamins mod". It'd be a nightmare scenario if everything came as a mod. Features do have to be mainlined i.e. added to the game by default.
- Vitamins are a part of health, and this is a game that already had diseases and mutations - health related stuff. An infection is part of the game's basic setup ("plot"). One motivation for vitamin addition could've been future potential - to enable further creativity down the road regarding diseases and mutations.
- The addition may have been simply motivated by a desire to model deficiencies, and to let them have (potentially irreparable) consequences when mixed with the sci-fi elements.
- It could've been just a case of "creative high". When your inspiration and creativity kick in, you don't ask whether people want the thing. You stop only if enough people are against the thing that you're doing. The "creative high" is a mad and wonderful thing. All you really think about is "This is goddamn glorious. People will love this, and if they don't, they'll either learn to love it, or they can go to hell for all I care. Muhahaha!" Another part of it is curiosity and exploration - the mentality that "I absolutely have to see how this works out... or how it fails. So we can all learn from it."
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: AdonaiJr on October 18, 2016, 08:03:32 PM
I'd like to make some serious suggestions on implementing/fixing vitamin, food variety, and stat's/moral buff's/debuff's.

It's all about this -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_appetite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_appetite)

That's how it (roughly) works IRL and also happens to be a candidate to an interesting game mechanic that could work.

In short: Your body knows if there's some nutritional deficiency creeping out. It makes you crave for specific kind's of food, flavor, color, smell. It is partially innate/partially learned from the food availability from where you live and your food experience/body memory from what you have eaten all your life. It just works.

Game mechanics


Initially we could have something as simple as this:

"You feel you could have some fruit juice... maybe just about anything with some fruit."
"You remember how good your gramma used to make that meat and bones soup.."
"You suddenly crave that horrible vegetable smoothie your aunt used to make when you was a kid."
"Ahhh, I'd really like to have some "fish-like" food."
"You remember some old-fashioned advertising about that incredibly frying pan with a juice meat on top, on a sunday's family get-together. Although you surely miss your relatives, all you can remember really is that steak."
"Although this meal tasted good and filled you up, you feel you don't want anything with meat for a while."

What's obviously going on here is your body signaling early stages of "something going on". It could get more direct hints if things get worse.

These kind of messages could easily be jsonised (lots and lots of community contributed different hint's about some deficiency/excess going on). It add's flavor (pun intended), and don't make you "count you calories/nutrients" chore on some hidden stat's.

Give it some moral bonus (or any other kind of incentive) if you fulfill your cravings and voi-lá - a somewhat acceptable (even fun and challenging) "Vitamin" system.


Make the game keep track of your previously eaten food in the last few days. Each time (e.g) you eat the same food in a short time frame (day or so maybe), make that recipe less desirable. Eventually, apply an increasingly higher morale debuf. It has filled you up, it has the right nutrients (or you are just alright), but you are becoming sick of that same food again and again for the last meals.

As the time passes, decreases the "unlikeability" back to normal.

Give a (additional) morale/stat buff every time you make a new cooking recipe you haven't eat yet or haven't for a while.

Every once in a while, at the start of the day, suggest some random meal craving "quest" that requires a very specific recipe (harder to make is better) that gives a very good morale or stat buff, for all the day.


For all the suggested "craving" things, make a modification on the crafting menu that makes visually easier to find the "most likely wanted" food. Maybe color saturation towards green if it's more likely, red if it's becoming undesirable.

I think it address most of the problems we all come to think about the vitamin system. It doesn't need to be discarded.

If it happen to you guys to like this idea, we can make a separate topic to discuss the balance issues and make this happen. It maybe better to suggest on github too.

Sorry all the language weirdness. :D
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zireael on October 19, 2016, 08:19:33 AM
Adonai, that's some fairly neat ideas!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: User on October 19, 2016, 11:19:14 AM
Quote from: Coolthulhu
food can easily rot during craft
what, your meat rots while you are frying it? :D i hadn't considered that.
auto-recognizing cannibalistic recipes is good though.

Quote from: AdonaiJr
It'd be a nightmare scenario if everything came as a mod.
as a morrowind and minetest player i disagree.
it's only a problem if your engine can't handle the mods because of performance issues.
also some dev pointed out that it is much easier to maintain mods that add content than to maintain blacklists.

i agree that vitamin deficiencies should manifest as cravings like irl.
and if actual penalties are applied for not eating healthy it should be on a more realistic timescale. most of the time cata characters already eat healthier than the majority people in neoliberal countries, and studies repeatedly show that people do not benefit from vitamin supplements.

also there should be more sources for calcium, insects for example (unless all insects on earth turned into monsters?).
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 19, 2016, 12:48:40 PM
and if actual penalties are applied for not eating healthy it should be on a more realistic timescale.
Realistic timescale here is a paradox because of the year day count mismatch.
Days have realistic length, 24hrs.
Weeks do not exist. (Or at best are ambiguous)
Months do not exist. (Instead, we have seasons)
Years do not have realistic length by default, and for a good reason, causing a dilemma.

A handful of us plays with 365-day year length, but most find/expect it to have certain unpleasant downsides.

Is there a solution to that? Is there a way to minimize the unpleasantness of 365-day years? Would all travel then become too fast? Could the map generator accommodate for more realistic intercity distances? Would driving become a chore, and if it would, is there a way around that? Would all characters reach their potential within a month or two? Crafting times could be increased to compensate. Reading times could be increased. There could be other timesinks to get the days of the long year flow by faster. Or would it cause too much processing and therefore slow down the performance? Is there a way around THAT then?

What is the proper way to perceive time?

most of the time cata characters already eat healthier than the majority people in neoliberal countries, and studies repeatedly show that people do not benefit from vitamin supplements.
That, in fact, is a possible motive for the nutrient model addition. Gamers aren't known for their healthy lifestyle or diet, although some are more conscious about it. To exaggerate it, CDDA doubles as an educational tool and a diet simulator for the best possible target audience. Believe me, I've learned a LOT via CDDA - a little about food and a lot about... a variety of stuff. It's like about... increasing the awareness. Expanding one's own horizons with minimal effort. The usual internets stuffs.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: jaked122 on October 19, 2016, 04:00:32 PM
If the options screen is becoming bloated and hard to navigate, perhaps it would be nice if I added a search function to that as well.

I mean, this is getting silly, but having the ability to search for whatever you want in any part of the interface has a value. I've written three different search guis in the last month for the game.

The time that you spend in the game looking for what you want is inherently wasted, so therefore the search has to be a good thing. I don't mean searching for as in the exploration aspect, as that's among the best parts, but futzing around on the GUI looking for the right button or finding one item or one type of item in a stack of forty thousand items.

This goes for the vehicle gui too, looking for a specific engine, I couldn't be arsed to search for the specific part that you want.

I also fixed the recipe search so that you can search by name, skill used, component required, quality provided, quality required. This reduced your time that you required to find what you know exists, but would otherwise need time to search for.

Can any of you really justify calling this "Bloat"?

Bloat is a word that's thrown around a lot. It's not about the complexity of the game, which tends upwards, but about the amount of bullshit that's required to do something.

Does it take thirty seconds to find the recipe, item, or part that you want to interact with? That's bloat.

Bloat is a more "Serious" adjective to use to describe bad game features.

Bloat in the context of most software refers to the weight of the software, the amount of resources that are required for it to function. The game is bloated, it is a very heavy game if you build it with lua support and tiles.

The text version is faster to load, lighter on your resources, which would be enough if it was 2002 and you have around five hundred megs of ram.

The text version is less responsive, less pretty, even if you "like" the text. It provides superior hints for gameplay purposes. Playing with the chesthole tileset, you can see if your character has armor equipped and even some of the mutations show up on it. Is that bloat?

No, because those visual cues are helpful if you like them. They reveal state that has relevance to the game that would require going through a bunch of screens to make sure that you have all your armor equipped for your street samurai approach to taking down zombies.

It helps you see if your character has picked up a new mutation in the process of screwing about in the hazardous waste sites.

This makes the game heavier and slower to load, but if you don't like having to go through a bunch of screens to check the state that exists in the game, then it is no doubt valuable.

This game is not a unix tool, it is not single purpose, it has no real "utility", and its complexity makes it more fulfilling when you come about to understanding it.

I try to take time when writing code for the game to ensure that it doesn't slow the game down during the game play, as slowing down the flow of gameplay would reduce the value of the gameplay.

The code I've written probably increases the size of the game in memory by around 500 kb if you have an immense number of items around you.

These features are not bloat in any reasonable scenario, hell you ought to be able to run it on a raspberry pi, so long as none of the libraries it uses have some mysterious dependency issue on ARM.

What's more, the code that made clothing filthy probably took around 30 lines of code. This is a drop in the ocean.

It's not bloat. It is at worst a bad game feature. Hell I don't even disagree with it, it's just another reason that I view the zombies as a source of easy cloth material rather than a clothing store.

Calling features bloat isn't right. Features can be implemented in a bloated way, but in general a good (technical) implementation should be able to avoid most of that.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: gamejunky on October 20, 2016, 03:38:29 AM
- That's actually a fair point although at the time I don't recall many people opposing the addition. It wasn't highly requested either. I think most of us just watched curiously.


A lot of that is because the part of the playing community that actually bothers to give feedback is largely an echo chamber.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 20, 2016, 03:55:44 AM
Vitamins were a bit of an unknown early on. It was less about echo chamber and more about "what if it turns out to be good".

We had (still have) a problem with all food boiling down to 2 things: nutrition and permafood vs perishables. Vitamins were supposed to fix it.
But then we got realism into it and lost all hope of them achieving that goal, because realism demanded that scurvy happens only when you avoid fruit, all vitamins are common enough to be satisfied easily etc.

Game design is full of failures and fixes.
Here we have an important lesson: don't name your things after real life ones if real life is horrible at those things. Because if you name it after the real life thing, realism may creep in and kill game design.

I'm not sure how to fix vitamins. Partial scrap? Major rebalance that disregards real life? Full scrap?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Noctifer on October 20, 2016, 04:11:55 AM
Can't we just balance it in game and justify it lore wise that the requirements differ from real-life since the blob* that is in you is unknowingly leeching vitamins off you.

*The one that cause you to mutate in the first place.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Mecares on October 20, 2016, 03:02:39 PM
I would just switch from punish lack of vitamins and nothing if you do everything right to nothing if you do it wrong and reward healthy eating. Because then they feel like earning a reward instead of working to avoid punishment. Combined with a stealth nerf of the base condition of the player it could basically be the same game balance wise but with totally different feelings to it.

Players hate mali but love boni
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zireael on October 20, 2016, 03:58:57 PM
Can't we just balance it in game and justify it lore wise that the requirements differ from real-life since the blob* that is in you is unknowingly leeching vitamins off you.

*The one that cause you to mutate in the first place.

This is a good idea.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: User on October 20, 2016, 09:25:33 PM
Quote
Is there a solution to that? Is there a way to minimize the unpleasantness of 365-day years? Would all travel then become too fast? Could the map generator accommodate for more realistic intercity distances? Would driving become a chore, and if it would, is there a way around that? Would all characters reach their potential within a month or two? Crafting times could be increased to compensate. Reading times could be increased. There could be other timesinks to get the days of the long year flow by faster. Or would it cause too much processing and therefore slow down the performance? Is there a way around THAT then?
are we even playing the same game?
do you seriously not consider the default settings for season length, city size and city spacing to be complete crap?
the map generator needs to be overhauled anyway so modders can mod it and fix its problems.
crafting times are a balance thing, do with them whatever you want as long as it doesn't suck. except for the unrealistic vitamin implementation, food usually isn't a problem so i guess increasing crafting time wouldn't matter much.

i agree though that vitamins in c:dda incentivize players to live healthier irl. shame that almost nobody uses them because the implementation sucks so badly.
the c:dda implementation probably even makes people think they need to buy multivitamins so it's actually doing a bad thing for people's health.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: jcd on October 20, 2016, 09:52:15 PM
i agree though that vitamins in c:dda incentivize players to live healthier irl. shame that almost nobody uses them because the implementation sucks so badly.
the c:dda implementation probably even makes people think they need to buy multivitamins so it's actually doing a bad thing for people's health.

Interesting angle.
Personally, it made me realize how lucky i am to have access to a huge food variety, even if i would be perfectly happy to live year round on meat/milk/bread/fruit (which is not too unbalanced now that i look at it)

As for the implementation, without getting into why it sucks and what could be done, i do believe that calibrating it for 365-day years would fix it.
However it would make the system practically a non-issue for people playing shorter games, but i guess this is correct. A survivor with a life-expectancy of 3 weeks cannot be expected to face serious problems due to vitamins. The real problem starts when the typical survivor life-expectancy is under 3 weeks, since this makes the vitamin system literally useless for cata. But from my perspective this change does make sense, since i play 30 or 91-day seasons.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 20, 2016, 11:50:56 PM
I am rather fond of AdonaiJr's proposal, which includes a mix of both punishment and reward to incentivize the player to cook more than one type of meal. I agree that with so many recipes available, it gets silly when you're surviving well enough to ignore 95% of the options. When one meal is most efficient and suffices, those options become meaningless beyond roleplay.

Don't get me wrong, I love roleplay and use it regularly in my games. But it's nice to have some features of said roleplay supported by game mechanics, even minimally. I am simply never going to make butter to put on toast if some survivor super stew is the best option.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Taberone on October 21, 2016, 03:07:38 AM
I'm surprised theres no "realism nerf" for getting shot/stabbed/beaten, since the injuries don't really feel deadly enough outside of "Cause pain and take away hit points". You can't take a baseball bat to the head and suffer a concussion, get shot in the gut three times and die slowly over the course of five hours, have a knife wound bleed or get infected, and so on.

That probably won't make for exciting gameplay, though. The constant bandage usage for every single time a bullet slams into you or a knife hits you would probably get annoying fast, and would probably draw comparisons to STALKER.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 21, 2016, 06:56:38 AM
1) Seperate Foods into the 5 food groups

2) Give each group a distinct tangible buff or benefit that affects the player with "luxury food" like properly prepared pancakes with syrup and buttered toast offering the best benefits in their category.

3)  Implement something similar to the old health system that focuses on variety instead of "food quality".

4)?????

5) Profit

Seriously, I don't see why this needs to be "fixed" in a complex manner that involves a ton of meter management. If you want to inflict random douchery upon the player base then just add a mechanic that randomly gives food cooked with a low cooking skill a chance to give you food poisoning. There's no need to force us to deal with the constant and completely unfun threat of accidentally getting too much of x vitamin. I will most likely continue to use the "simplified nutrition" mod well into the future, because even though the old health system sucked, it did not actively attempt to make the game less enjoyable to play.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BeerBeer on October 21, 2016, 01:00:49 PM
I'm surprised theres no "realism nerf" for getting shot/stabbed/beaten, since the injuries don't really feel deadly enough outside of "Cause pain and take away hit points". You can't take a baseball bat to the head and suffer a concussion, get shot in the gut three times and die slowly over the course of five hours, have a knife wound bleed or get infected, and so on.
Future medical technology, baby! We'll just rename the "first-aid kit" to "nano first-aid kit" or something like that.

This DoubleTech Snake-Oil emergency first-aid kit can rapidly treat over 99% of the various possible acute medical issues with unprecedented efficiency. Severe tissue trauma, wound contaminants, nerve damage or burn injuries are but a few ailments that this little box of wonders can treat. The only reported side effects are slight skin discoloration and the lack of hair follicles at the injury location. So try not to get shot in the beard.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on October 21, 2016, 06:54:05 PM
Technically it would reduce the whole "bandage all the things" issue if you went full realism. Yes, you'd be bandaging up a lot of bleeding wounds, but then you wouldn't be able to use them to heal the damage itself.

It'd be even worse than in S.T.A.L.K.E.R., because at least in SoC bandages also healed you, and even in the later games first aid kits would heal damage too. If you went that far, you'd have to make natural healing take a stupidly long time, then have the non-scifi healing items not heal any damage.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Noctifer on October 21, 2016, 08:47:49 PM
Technically it would reduce the whole "bandage all the things" issue if you went full realism. Yes, you'd be bandaging up a lot of bleeding wounds, but then you wouldn't be able to use them to heal the damage itself.

It'd be even worse than in S.T.A.L.K.E.R., because at least in SoC bandages also healed you, and even in the later games first aid kits would heal damage too. If you went that far, you'd have to make natural healing take a stupidly long time, then have the non-scifi healing items not heal any damage.
Actually,fit realism healing was a thing and the healing items were left alone it would be balance imo, that way you bandage up to not die and either rest until healed up, used you stocked heal items or go get some. Right now I don't bother with first aid beyond infections and bleeding since sleeping will heal all wounds fast.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Taberone on October 22, 2016, 05:33:14 AM
I'm surprised theres no "realism nerf" for getting shot/stabbed/beaten, since the injuries don't really feel deadly enough outside of "Cause pain and take away hit points". You can't take a baseball bat to the head and suffer a concussion, get shot in the gut three times and die slowly over the course of five hours, have a knife wound bleed or get infected, and so on.
Future medical technology, baby! We'll just rename the "first-aid kit" to "nano first-aid kit" or something like that.

This DoubleTech Snake-Oil emergency first-aid kit can rapidly treat over 99% of the various possible acute medical issues with unprecedented efficiency. Severe tissue trauma, wound contaminants, nerve damage or burn injuries are but a few ailments that this little box of wonders can treat. The only reported side effects are slight skin discoloration and the lack of hair follicles at the injury location. So try not to get shot in the beard.

Just had an idea. Couldn't we just have some degree of acceptable breaks from reality with the serious injuries and justify it with the blob somehow? I've seen the blob being used as a justification for some other suggestions people made.

Also, considering that First Aid Kits or taking a quick nap can heal damage to hit points regardless of what caused it in Cataclysm already, it probably wouldn't be too weird to have serious injuries (If they ever make it in) being healed by sleeping/FAKs?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on October 22, 2016, 02:57:48 PM
We already do. As far as i know your fast healing rate is justified by the blob helping to repair damage to its host.
So us healing overnight is realistic in the cataclysm world.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: User on October 23, 2016, 05:38:54 AM
Since we're already talking about how to make the game more realistic...
Cauterization actually increases the risk of infection, according to wikipedia. This should be fixed imho.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 23, 2016, 06:40:15 AM
Wow, now there's an old debate I haven't heard in a while.

The vague way I recall it, there was a lot of pros and cons either way - namely leaving cauterization as-is because making it realistic would be unintuitive to the mass player group who don't know this factoid. Or something about the survivor's knowledge being separate from the players. Or we should remove cautery entirely. Or it should be re-worked as a solution to severe bleeding rather than infection healing. I vaguely recall the cauterize wound function being re-worked so you had two very-long shots to push things in your favour, but for the most part you just fucked up your injury and caused yourself a lot of pain on top of the spreading infection.

...I'd like to think that cutting infected tissue out sufficiently, and then cauterizing what's left over to stop bleeding might make sense if it's caught early enough, but it still all comes down to whether or not you can avoid recontaminating your own injury in the process.


Has it seriously remained an unchanged function since this last came up like a year ago?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 23, 2016, 06:43:10 AM
Has it seriously remained an unchanged function since this last came up like a year ago?

Yes.
It's a pretty minor feature once you understand how infection works.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 23, 2016, 06:58:28 AM
Last time my guy got bit, I had him hunt around for disinfectant and lo, both wounds healed on their own before I could. Shrug! Either he's really lucky, or the odds of recovery have improved since I last played.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: User on October 23, 2016, 10:34:06 AM
cutting out tissue gives even more room for infection. unless in cata infection can only come directly from bites and not through air or dirt.

also i don't find it intuitive at all, i died of infection several times because it never occurred to me that something that clearly only stops bleeding on the surface would somehow kill bacteria deep inside the wound, and cutting out a chunk of flesh seemed even weirder, so i went to wikipedia because it just seemed such a strange idea and felt like cheating.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Shopkeeper on October 23, 2016, 02:04:37 PM
Since we're already talking about how to make the game more realistic...
Cauterization actually increases the risk of infection, according to wikipedia. This should be fixed imho.
Currently cauterizing a wound has a 50% chance to heal it, otherwise it makes the bite worsen as if 43 minutes passed.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on October 23, 2016, 09:56:26 PM
Currently its almost pointless to cauterize wounds, Ive never gotten it to work without debugging and/or savescumming.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 23, 2016, 10:04:35 PM
Heh, 50% huh? I'm surprised it's even that good. And yeah, I used to assume cautery was burning deep enough to roast all the bad tissue, but then I thought a little harder and realized a lighter and a makeshift knife is not going to reach deep enough.

I've been using cautery on my guy with masochism trait for the small morale boost when tatochips aren't quite enough to let him craft.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Noctifer on October 23, 2016, 10:52:55 PM
I sometimes play as a bio_sniper in the helicopter crash scenario and cauterizing helps stop the bleeding but was not aware it could cure bites... Wouldn't something like maggot treatment be better than cauterizing to prevent infection?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: jaked122 on October 24, 2016, 12:43:28 AM
I sometimes play as a bio_sniper in the helicopter crash scenario and cauterizing helps stop the bleeding but was not aware it could cure bites... Wouldn't something like maggot treatment be better than cauterizing to prevent infection?

I don't want any maggot infections more than we already have.

I mean, there is the bloatfly thing, isn't there?

According to wikipedia it isn't for every sort of wound

Quote
The wound must be of a type which can benefit from the application of maggot therapy. A moist, exudating wound with sufficient oxygen supply is a prerequisite. Not all wound-types are suitable: wounds which are dry, or open wounds of body cavities do not provide a good environment for maggots to feed. In some cases it may be possible to make a dry wound suitable for larval therapy by moistening it with saline soaks, applied for 48 hours.

And then there's the additional requirement that the wound have necrotic tissue in order to benefit

Quote
In January 2004, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) granted permission to produce and market maggots for use in humans or animals as a prescription-only medical device for the following indications: "For debriding non-healing necrotic skin and soft tissue wounds, including pressure ulcers, venous stasis ulcers, neuropathic foot ulcers, and non-healing traumatic or post-surgical wounds."

Altogether, I'd rather avoid all of the realism that would be required for the game to model those requirements.

Just fucking let me have my first aid kit.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 24, 2016, 01:16:01 AM
I'd allow maggot therapy like this: butcher giant fly, acquire eggs, apply eggs like medkit, lose infection but gain "fly infested" debuff that would cause some pain.
No need for any extra complexity here.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Profugo Barbatus on October 24, 2016, 01:25:34 AM
I'd also apply some sort of significant morale debuff as well, it'd be pretty hard to be happy while you feel maggots squirming around your skin. Otherwise, sounds like a decent implementation.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Ferodaktyl on October 24, 2016, 02:29:37 AM
arent maggots for gangrene  rather than infections ?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on October 24, 2016, 03:12:32 AM
good vs rotten flesh... not something I think I would want to resort to though.. especially since... where do you find "clean" maggots.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 24, 2016, 05:12:53 AM
arent maggots for gangrene  rather than infections ?

Gangrene can be caused by infection, or by cut off circulation - which usually then results in infection entering via the dead tissue. It's basically got all the requirements maggots need as listed in an above post. It'd be a better bet to save your bug eggs for gangrene than other types of infection, definitely.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 28, 2016, 06:08:51 PM
arent maggots for gangrene  rather than infections ?

Gangrene can be caused by infection, or by cut off circulation - which usually then results in infection entering via the dead tissue. It's basically got all the requirements maggots need as listed in an above post. It'd be a better bet to save your bug eggs for gangrene than other types of infection, definitely.

No offense, but this seems insane. Like, literally insane... Especially Coolthulu's rendition that involves ripping a pulsing ootheca from the corpse of a mutant fly creature and smearing it's babies all over yourself. Nobody in their right mind would do that. Ever. There are dozens of other more sensical ways of treating an infected wound that aren't represented in the game.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 28, 2016, 06:14:09 PM
I absolutely agree haha! My thoughts were dwelling on regular-sized flies, which I suppose don't exist in C:DDA in any capacity. An oversight on my part. Got a few of these alternative methods to share? I'm all for a better idea to work in, should we really need more infection treatments. Last few times I've played this week, my chance of recovering without treatment seems significantly improved. So I raise the question: is the addition of more wound treatment methods out of desire for realism, or a gameplay need?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 28, 2016, 07:18:10 PM
Got a few of these alternative methods to share? I'm all for a better idea to work in, should we really need more infection treatments.

Of course good sir. I wouldn't gripe about it if I didn't have some sort of solution in mind.  Using a syringe to drain the wound. Using a sterilized knife to debride the wound in a similar but more effective manner than cauterization. A penicillin injection. Anti-microbial sponges.  Good old soap and water. Topical antibiotics. Removal of the affected limb (if this produces even one funny noob story about someone accidentally beheading themselves it will be completely worth it).
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 29, 2016, 08:31:57 AM
No offense, but this seems insane. Like, literally insane... Especially Coolthulu's rendition that involves ripping a pulsing ootheca from the corpse of a mutant fly creature and smearing it's babies all over yourself. Nobody in their right mind would do that. Ever. There are dozens of other more sensical ways of treating an infected wound that aren't represented in the game.

Maggot therapy sounds insane, but it works. Not as well as proper disinfection, but it's better than medieval technology.
Adding mutant flies to that is just a game thing that would let us handwave problems associated with real flies being dirty carriers of disease.

And that part about people in right mind: that's pure bullshit. People in right mind would not pick horrible death from gangrenous wound over something that is disgusting but safe.
There are cases of people with frostbite cutting off their fingers, people with infected parts of body cutting out skin and fat to get rid of infection, voluntary infections with tapeworms just to lose some body fat and look better (tapeworms at one point in their life cycle can travel to random organs and form nodules there) etc.
Then there is traditional Korean medicine using literal shit as medicine (even though there is no scientific basis to support that).

We're not talking about squeamish city dweller here, but possibly a hardened survivor who eats mutant flies and cockroaches and has a gangrenous wound caused by the bite of a mutated, rotting corpse.

I'm not insisting on adding a new method of wound disinfection, since we have enough of those and it's easy enough already, but saying that a hardened survivor would be too squeamish to save his life is at the very best pure ignorance.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: User(6) on October 29, 2016, 06:58:39 PM
Quote
Then there is traditional Korean medicine using literal shit as medicine (even though there is no scientific basis to support that).
Well, monkeys sometimes eat their feces so obviously there is an evolutionary advantage in doing that.
Maybe because gut bacteria helps process vitamin b12 or whatever.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on October 29, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
I'm not insisting on adding a new method of wound disinfection, since we have enough of those and it's easy enough already, but saying that a hardened survivor would be too squeamish to save his life is at the very best pure ignorance.

It has nothing to do with squeamishness and everything to do with the fact that it wouldn't work. And ignorant? Really? Are you saying that you're omnipotent and know exactly how any given person will react in any given situation? Maggot therapy is a specialized treatment for very specific types of wounds that uses (and contrary to popular belief this has been the case throughout history as well) specially bred medical maggots. And the examples you gave completely prove my point. People who slice off infected limbs and tissue are using sound logic and reasoning to solve the problem. People who drink poop liqueur because they think it will fix all of their medical problems are delusional. People who infect themselves with a dangerous parasite because they think it's a better idea than going for a fucking bike-ride are delusional.

People who would kill a possibly radioactive giant animal that is almost surely completely genetically different from the thing that it evolved from and rub it's babies all over an infected wound under the assumption that they will behave exactly like other maggots (which is a planet sized assumption) are delusional. Even if all of these completely baseless assumptions turned out to be accurate it would still be an idiotic idea because a "hardened survivor" as you describe would most likely have the equipment and knowledge to debride the wound in a more reliable, effective, and SANE (this IS the correct word in this situation) way. It doesn't require much, just a sharp blade, some rags, and the ability to boil water.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Pthalocy on October 29, 2016, 08:43:27 PM
This is all a moot point, as C:DDA allows for enough role play that hardened cataclysm warriors are just as plausible to occur as squishy citydwellers. Whether or not said survivor is in the "right mind" when deciding whether or not gangrene beats having maggots in their leg is also kind of up for grabs depending on their situation and what the player's concerns include.

If I were a survivor and found myself with no means to sanitize, no means to debride due to unsanitary weapons, no means to get back home to my supply - maybe I'd start considering the risk of hoping giant mutated fly larva still act like pre-cata fly larva. Desperation is a hell of a motivator, and not necessarily the most logical, nor completely devoid of it.

Anyway of the ideas spadedraco listed, the most valuable one to me was "Good old soap and water", as ...Honestly, do we use soap for much? Shaving kits? I know it was implemented for that filthy clothes PR that got really negative reviews, and ... not much else comes to mind, cuz I'm not about to eat the soap. I'm for giving meaningful purpose to already-included items that do little. Maybe soap and water would only be effective for a very short time period after the infection stat is noted? You would still need harsher methods further down the line should it be neglected for any amount of time, so soap wouldn't become a cheap magical cure to injury unless you literally have it right on-hand. Thoughts on balance issues?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheFlame52 on October 29, 2016, 08:48:48 PM
BACK ON TOPIC, I have noticed that things have been slowly getting nerfed for years, not just six months. As an example, MMR. He use to be able to explode brutes with a single punch. Then he could explode zombies with a punch. Then he could explode zombies with a pistol whip. Then he could explode zombies with a single sword slash. Now he can only do that to basic zombies and a few variants, and with zombie evolution, there aren't many of those around. Granted, I'm playing with PK's rebalancing, which makes things much harder, but still. Nerfs keep happening, they're going to keep happening, and I don't like it one bit.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Shopkeeper on October 29, 2016, 09:51:37 PM
(click to show/hide)

The maggot treatment for an infection sounds like a perfectly acceptable case for compromise by 'gameism' mechanic.

BACK ON TOPIC, I have noticed that things have been slowly getting nerfed for years, not just six months. As an example, MMR. He use to be able to explode brutes with a single punch. Then he could explode zombies with a punch. Then he could explode zombies with a pistol whip. Then he could explode zombies with a single sword slash. Now he can only do that to basic zombies and a few variants, and with zombie evolution, there aren't many of those around. Granted, I'm playing with PK's rebalancing, which makes things much harder, but still. Nerfs keep happening, they're going to keep happening, and I don't like it one bit.

Is Marloss Man the same singular survivor or has he been remade a couple times? I played Valerie Irving across several lives due to game breaking bugs from pre-0.C to the most recent experimentals. In her first incarnation she was able to pulp Hulks at 15/15/15/15 thanks to 30+ melee/cutting and a katana. Then they fixed scaling to be more sane based on a ten point system. I could still pulp most things once I discovered niten-ichi ryu and diamond coated a katana. But then they rebalanced niten to be less of an instant "I win" style.

I think those things were less nerfs and more bringing characters down to a sane powerlevel from being potential demigods. Besides isn't Marloss Man a product of granada abuse anyway?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on October 30, 2016, 05:41:04 AM
Are you saying that you're omnipotent and know exactly how any given person will react in any given situation?

No, YOU are saying that.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Subhazard on October 31, 2016, 10:50:07 AM
I'm not insisting on adding a new method of wound disinfection, since we have enough of those and it's easy enough already, but saying that a hardened survivor would be too squeamish to save his life is at the very best pure ignorance.

It has nothing to do with squeamishness and everything to do with the fact that it wouldn't work. And ignorant? Really? Are you saying that you're omnipotent and know exactly how any given person will react in any given situation? Maggot therapy is a specialized treatment for very specific types of wounds that uses (and contrary to popular belief this has been the case throughout history as well) specially bred medical maggots. And the examples you gave completely prove my point. People who slice off infected limbs and tissue are using sound logic and reasoning to solve the problem. People who drink poop liqueur because they think it will fix all of their medical problems are delusional. People who infect themselves with a dangerous parasite because they think it's a better idea than going for a fucking bike-ride are delusional.

People who would kill a possibly radioactive giant animal that is almost surely completely genetically different from the thing that it evolved from and rub it's babies all over an infected wound under the assumption that they will behave exactly like other maggots (which is a planet sized assumption) are delusional. Even if all of these completely baseless assumptions turned out to be accurate it would still be an idiotic idea because a "hardened survivor" as you describe would most likely have the equipment and knowledge to debride the wound in a more reliable, effective, and SANE (this IS the correct word in this situation) way. It doesn't require much, just a sharp blade, some rags, and the ability to boil water.

Gonna be that guy here, but hook worm has been known to cure people of a fuckload of allergies.  We didn't actually have rampant allergies until the invention of the outhouse, believe it or not.

And as a corollary, the lone-star tick can cause Alpha-gal allergies (which is a type of sugar found only in mammals that aren't primates), which means 'red meat allergy'


Both do so by tacking on a bunch of shit to a familiar compound.  Like, the lone-star tick will wrap an alpha-gal sugar in a bunch of weird garbage in order to trick something or rather (I forget), so your body develops an anti-body for alpha-gal, making you allergic to meat sugar.

so yeah, if you're suddenly allergic to red meat, you probably got bit by a lone-star tick.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Uweron on November 01, 2016, 12:57:28 AM
If came to "gameplay-realism" relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it's lot's of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don't have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).


Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Subhazard on November 01, 2016, 03:18:31 AM
If came to "gameplay-realism" relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it's lot's of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don't have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).


Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.

You're gonna have to try a little harder with your English, because what you just said made no sense.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on November 01, 2016, 03:19:58 AM
If came to "gameplay-realism" relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it's lot's of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don't have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).


Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.

You're gonna have to try a little harder with your English, because what you just said made no sense.

I can read it. What is your problem?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Subhazard on November 01, 2016, 03:42:37 AM
If came to "gameplay-realism" relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it's lot's of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don't have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).


Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.

You're gonna have to try a little harder with your English, because what you just said made no sense.

I can read it. What is your problem?

An inability to read, apparently.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Shopkeeper on November 01, 2016, 04:43:13 AM
He's saying we should have the ability to clean bite wounds with either alcohol or soap and water.

Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.

I love non-native English posters, you guys brighten up my day.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: §k on November 01, 2016, 04:46:01 AM
I think the example should be attacking zombie with wasp sting.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on November 01, 2016, 07:47:47 AM
Are you saying that you're omnipotent and know exactly how any given person will react in any given situation?

No, YOU are saying that.

Fair enough. I was asking for that one. Can we agree to disagree and continue to be forum bros?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on November 01, 2016, 10:35:31 AM
Can we agree to disagree and continue to be forum bros?

I don't hold grudges, some shitslinging is an inherent part of being online for as long as it doesn't get to personal insults/politics/morality etc.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on November 01, 2016, 01:10:20 PM
If came to "gameplay-realism" relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it's lot's of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don't have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).


I always found weird how the game doesn't consider the different disinfectant level of soap/alcoholic drink/ethanol/disinfectant brand X.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: AdonaiJr on November 01, 2016, 01:35:17 PM
off-topic:
(click to show/hide)
on-topic: Like some people said, I think it's a generally good ideia to give more uses to soap. It could raise a little bit the wound's chance to heal itself. But yeah, that's up to our dev god's to ponderate if this is code-friendly.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on November 01, 2016, 05:01:23 PM
off-topic:
(click to show/hide)
on-topic: Like some people said, I think it's a generally good ideia to give more uses to soap. It could raise a little bit the wound's chance to heal itself. But yeah, that's up to our dev god's to ponderate if this is code-friendly.
What uses would be acceptable?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on November 01, 2016, 06:22:28 PM
Having applied soap use up few units of water to apply "cleaned wound" status could be a thing. As long as it didn't require constant reapplying, since that would be tedious.
Though it would require some (probably minor) reworking of the body part selection menu, to allow picking infected wounds without curing them outright.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: latogato on November 03, 2016, 11:20:31 AM
I share how i see the current status of the CDDA as a gamer. My english sucks, so be forgiving. It is not a rant, i love this game very much, i just wrote out what i see as a problem, so maybe a developer will agree with it and fix them or someone points out why i am wrong.  :)

As i see, some parts of the game is too easy to implement and that parts are bloated, while other parts are negleted because there is no clear direction to follow.

Too many recipes:
We have so many items in the game, the selection is overwhelming. Most of them are not necessary, they are mostly cosmetical items (like wrist bandoliner for extra 4 ammo) or two-in-one items (like the l-stick, a stylish walking staff without fancy tag but glowing and accidentaly good for fighting).  While i'm against that kind of items - but it is my personal problem -, the main problem is the crafting menu is overflowed by them. I don't think there is anyone who using more than a small percents of the recipes. As a solution i think we needs several books for each "group", like "Mexican foods for beginners", "Vegetarian wonders", "Campfire cooking", "Vehicle electronics", etc. each with some but mostly separate recipes, so the player can choose and discard the unwanted recipe books. Also there are too many autolearned recipes, they needs a review or a separate tab in the crafting menu, like a "frozen foods", "canning", etc.

Too complex:
I think the vehicle and weapon realism are too complex to please an average gamer. It's kinda fun but overwhelming and not fully understandable. I'm sure they please the experts but i'm not sure about anyone else. There should be a limit of the complexity, like nobody wants to implement a Linux CLI for the computers, because it would be unnecessary, the simple computer menu is fine.

Already implemented but not used:
I think food gathering should be a challenge, but it is the easiest part of the game. It should be 3 steps: looting for food before they rot -> growing food or hunting for food -> eating monster meat or items through CBM or mutation. While every steps is already implemented in the game, the first step is ever presenting and make the others unnecessary. Maybe in the future, people are pursuit healthy living so canned foods are rare? Food processing is so advanced nobody eats preserved foods because they prefer the fresh "bio-foods" only? Also i don't think i should see fresh spoilable food anywhere in the game after a season, which i can.

Lack of coherence:
I think the greatest problem with the game, there are plenty of idea but there is no coherence. Items implemented needlessly and without balance and they are obsolete each others, there are many items in the game which are never used, because there are plenty better and easily accessible alternative. Or look at the monster evolution. As i see, it was an answer to the overpowered weapons, because monsters became unchallenging. This change gave us a great variation of monsters which is good, but in the old versions the monsters was a threat, with this implementation the game became an arms race where most of the monsters are still losing badly, while others can unexpectedly instakill you (mostly smg enemies with lucky criticals). There should be a guideline which lays down some basic rules about how to create items. Also i think the project needs a discussion to lay down some facts about the game world to help the implementations of the new things, so they can connect to the world. Which leads my last remark.

Lack of flow:
One thing should leads to another one. The game world needs a flow, a  goal where it is heading,  bad goals seek by the monsters and a good goal seek by the player. Without this the game world is static and the development is filled with non-essential changes because there is no direction to follow. There should be global goals in the game or at least some local problems to solve, that would make the world alive. Now there is nothing to force us to do anything, there is no threat looming above our head, no creeping danger stalking on us. You can live your life comfortable in your base and sometimes you can go out for an adventure. We have the horde, which is a best example as a closing threat. The only other challenge if we foolishly choose to live next to some monster nest. We need more like the horde, but maybe less overwhelming. Like hunting mi-gos or other otherworldly horrors. Or portals just pop out and release a lot of monsters. Or threatening spread of the existing monsters so they will pose a threat eventually. Also there are many place in the game which can pose as a challenge, but because there is no story, there is no needs to visit them, except curiosity.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on November 03, 2016, 04:24:47 PM
I share how i see the current status of the CDDA as a gamer. My english sucks, so be forgiving. It is not a rant, i love this game very much, i just wrote out what i see as a problem, so maybe a developer will agree with it and fix them or someone points out why i am wrong.  :)

As i see, some parts of the game is too easy to implement and that parts are bloated, while other parts are negleted because there is no clear direction to follow.

Too many receipts:
We have so many items in the game, the selection is overwhelming. Most of them are not necessary, they are mostly cosmetical items (like wrist bandoliner for extra 4 ammo) or two-in-one items (like the l-stick, a stylish walking staff without fancy tag but glowing and accidentaly good for fighting).  While i'm against that kind of items - but it is my personal problem -, the main problem is the crafting menu is overflowed by them. I don't think there is anyone who using more than a small percents of the receipts. As a solution i think we needs several books for each "group", like "Mexican foods for beginners", "Vegetarian wonders", "Campfire cooking", "Vehicle electronics", etc. each with some but mostly separate receipts, so the player can choose and discard the unwanted receipt books. Also there are too many autolearned receipts, they needs a review or a separate tab in the crafting menu, like a "frozen foods", "canning", etc.

A "hide recipe" button for the player could be useful. Or a blacklist.

Too complex:
I think the vehicle and weapon realism are too complex to please an average gamer. It's kinda fun but overwhelming and not fully understandable. I'm sure they please the experts but i'm not sure about anyone else. There should be a limit of the complexity, like nobody wants to implement a Linux CLI for the computers, because it would be unnecessary, the simple computer menu is fine.

I think the cause of the trend towards simple games is the loss of free time in recent decades; fewer people have the time to learn anything other than how to do their job and care for their family.
The game does have a problem with obscure features, due to lack of feedback. The interface needs to expand a little, or more signs of game mechanics at work need to appear.

Already implemented but not used:
I think food gathering should be a challenge, but it is the easiest part of the game. It should be 3 steps: looting for food before they rot -> growing food or hunting for food -> eating monster meat or items through CBM or mutation. While every steps is already implemented in the game, the first step is ever presenting and make the others unnecessary. Maybe in the future, people are pursuit healthy living so canned foods are rare? Food processing is so advanced nobody eats preserved foods because they prefer the fresh "bio-foods" only? Also i don't think i should see fresh spoilable food anywhere in the game after a season, which i can.

A major cause of this is the fact that all new terrain spawned at the edge of the map is untouched by the cataclysm. The grass will always be greener at the map edge, so why bother staying in one place?

Lack of flow:
One thing should leads to another one. The game world needs a flow, a  goal where it is heading,  bad goals seek by the monsters and a good goal seek by the player. Without this the game world is static and the development is filled with non-essential changes because there is no direction to follow. There should be global goals in the game or at least some local problems to solve, that would make the world alive. Now there is nothing to force us to do anything, there is no threat looming above our head, no creeping danger stalking on us. You can live your life comfortable in your base and sometimes you can go out for an adventure. We have the horde, which is a best example as a closing threat. The only other challenge if we foolishly choose to live next to some monster nest. We need more like the horde, but maybe less overwhelming. Like hunting mi-gos or other otherworldly horrors. Or portals just pop out and release a lot of monsters. Or threatening spread of the existing monsters so they will pose a threat eventually. Also there are many place in the game which can pose as a challenge, but because there is no story, there is no needs to visit them, except curiosity.

It would be interesting to have faction strategy like Civilization, but I don't know if it could be done with the computers available.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: latogato on November 05, 2016, 04:03:12 PM
A "hide recipe" button for the player could be useful. Or a blacklist.
Yes, that was my first idea too, but i think the UI is already over-complicated or clogged and in-game-world solutions would be much better because changing settings are break the immersion, while throwing away recipe books are not.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on November 05, 2016, 10:18:41 PM
both would be good. Even of the practical stuff, often you don't want or need a lot of recipes. But it should be an In-game blacklist, or at least Also have the option for such, something like Don't include ____ in recipes. Simmilar to the Auto pickup white-list but a blacklist instead. This should be used as a final filter though, not full solution. Main solution should come from other sources where possible.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: wad67 on November 06, 2016, 06:27:27 AM
I find myself going back and playing really old releases of cataclysm(when vehicles were just a mod), and having more fun. Not sure what that is about.

The newer versions seem to be suffering from performance problems, most likely due to an overload of features.
It's somewhat playable, but long actions feel like a crawl.

I'd enjoy it a lot more if it had some polish and optimizations. 
At the moment it feels as if I am pressing way too many buttons and waiting way too long to achieve too little.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: hexman on November 06, 2016, 06:48:43 AM
I find myself going back and playing really old releases of cataclysm(when vehicles were just a mod), and having more fun. Not sure what that is about.

The newer versions seem to be suffering from performance problems, most likely due to an overload of features.
It's somewhat playable, but long actions feel like a crawl.

I'd enjoy it a lot more if it had some polish and optimizations. 
At the moment it feels as if I am pressing way too many buttons and waiting way too long to achieve too little.

Don't know how much fun would the old releases be compared to the current versions but I would admit that the 0.C stable (which I was playing for a long while until recently) is much more cleaner than the current experimentals.

But it's also a fact that a lot of good stuff has been added (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13526.0) to the experimentals and, imho, to the seasoned DDA player, these features should be "fun" enough to keep them from going back to the stable.

With 0.D seeming a long way (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/milestone/10) I would really suggest you to give the (latest) experimentals another try.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: User(6) on November 06, 2016, 11:26:36 AM
i agree with latogato (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13234.msg287428#msg287428) from the part on where he talks about food.
letting food outside of your reality bubble perish is so easy to implement, a child could do it.
there definitely should be randomly spawning hordes and other enemies that attack your base, right now the world is way too static.
to make building your base less effort there should be some vehicle module that lets you build walls and fences and whatnot quicker. some kind of 3d printer with arms and hands.

lack of coherence is annoying indeed, like how soap is useful only for filthy clothes, and how zombie clothes can be filthy but you can wear the same gear forever and pick up clean apples dropped by boomers (boomers are naked, so where were they storing that apple?...) or how harvesting some plants opens an inventory menu whereas harvesting others drops the plant to the ground.

also there must be some modding API to let modders fix the broken world gen, right now it's just awful. everything looks alike, there is no biomes, there's too many shops and not enough houses, if city spacing is increased to a less retarded value then hospitals and schools are spawned too far away from towns, there's almost no farms and no mass animal farming, where does all the food come from and why do computer consoles and bitcoin ATMs still have electricity and internet access but you can't chat with other survivors, and where are the solar-powered bitcoin mining farms? certainly nobody thinks that legacy banking would still work after the cataclysm.
though i guess i could already mod some of that myself with the existing API.

other than that, cataclysm is pretty good. way more polished than many other FOSS games and less buggy than proprietary ones. except that one time when it told me it saved successfully when my partition was full and thus destroyed the world.
but at least it doesn't "rm -rf --no-preserve-root /" like certain botnets (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2871653/scary-steam-for-linux-bug-erases-all-the-personal-files-on-your-pc.html).
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on November 06, 2016, 12:05:49 PM

Don't know how much fun would the old releases be compared to the current versions but I would admit that the 0.C stable (which I was playing for a long while until recently) is much more cleaner than the current experimentals.

But it's also a fact that a lot of good stuff has been added (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13526.0) to the experimentals and, imho, to the seasoned DDA player, these features should be "fun" enough to keep them from going back to the stable.

With 0.D seeming a long way (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/milestone/10) I would really suggest you to give the (latest) experimentals another try.

I'm still playing with 0.C, mainly because I like long term plays with long term projects. The experimental, with all those radical changes every now and then upsets my no-change phobia.

Although I have had some playthroughs with some experimental, keeping up my own mods with it is very tiresome, the aforementioned radical changes makes stick with 0.C until the next stable.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on November 06, 2016, 01:47:51 PM
also there must be some modding API to let modders fix the broken world gen, right now it's just awful.

Modders are free to PR fixes to mainline. This is much easier for both sides than implementing a whole modding interface just so that it can be exposed to the outside and much easier than using such an interface with all the limitations it would have to include.

The only sensible kind of interface that could be exposed to mods would be a pure lua callback that would (conditionally?) replace the overmap world gen. Then modders could reimplement the world gen from the lua side.
But even that would take quite a bit of work from the API side and I don't see anyone requesting the feature or even promising to utilize it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Voqar on November 07, 2016, 07:13:58 PM
I haven't played in a few weeks and didn't get to play that much this weekend due to experimental being a bit buggy (documented) for my tastes.

I didn't notice too much new insanity and did notice a few new changes I actually liked (reading screen for ex).

The only thing that I found off was how much time it was taking to move stuff between piles via advanced inventory.  I mean...why.  Why is there this ongoing attempt to put unnecessary time sinks into the game?  It shouldn't take my character hours to move crap from one pile to another pile right next to it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on November 07, 2016, 08:37:20 PM
The only thing that I found off was how much time it was taking to move stuff between piles via advanced inventory.  I mean...why.  Why is there this ongoing attempt to put unnecessary time sinks into the game?  It shouldn't take my character hours to move crap from one pile to another pile right next to it.

Hearing you makes me want to hug my 0.C even more.

Please tell me it's moddable.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: wad67 on November 08, 2016, 06:20:14 PM
I find myself going back and playing really old releases of cataclysm(when vehicles were just a mod), and having more fun. Not sure what that is about.

The newer versions seem to be suffering from performance problems, most likely due to an overload of features.
It's somewhat playable, but long actions feel like a crawl.

I'd enjoy it a lot more if it had some polish and optimizations. 
At the moment it feels as if I am pressing way too many buttons and waiting way too long to achieve too little.

Don't know how much fun would the old releases be compared to the current versions but I would admit that the 0.C stable (which I was playing for a long while until recently) is much more cleaner than the current experimentals.

But it's also a fact that a lot of good stuff has been added (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13526.0) to the experimentals and, imho, to the seasoned DDA player, these features should be "fun" enough to keep them from going back to the stable.

With 0.D seeming a long way (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/milestone/10) I would really suggest you to give the (latest) experimentals another try.


I gave the latest experimental a try, tried turning off tiles, changing the size of the viewport, but still having performance issues. When moving around, every five to six tiles the game tends to hitch for about 300 ms or so. Virtually unplayable, had the delays set to 0, even turned force redraw off but still no luck.

0.C stable is a little better, I can run the game with tiles enabled, with maximum viewport size and I don't get a great deal of hitching, actions generally go a bit faster too.
Much older versions of the game seem to run much, much faster. I have a copy of cataclysm that is from somewhere between 0.9 and 0.A.
It is screaming fast in comparison.

That's my only major gripe really, Feels like too much time investment for too little reward.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ZoneWizard on November 08, 2016, 11:09:18 PM
New features minus all the bugs would be good, but that is the general goal ;)

As for "realism ruining the game"....people are inconvenienced in real life and prevented from traversing space because we need air...in short?

This is not mario bros.


Play the version you want and suck it up. Realism in games is a good thing. You can passively understand everything instantly. How so? Well if you spit in the air what happens?

You do not know? Well stop playing...you tilted your head and all the rocks fell out =P
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheFlame52 on November 08, 2016, 11:31:35 PM
I don't want to play a wilderness survival simulator, I want to play a zombie killing simulator.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ZoneWizard on November 08, 2016, 11:41:46 PM
So start in the mall silly =P
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on November 09, 2016, 12:00:22 AM
Reminder: realism is fine until it makes the game worse. See prior remark about my constantly stating "realism should compliment gameplay, not detract from it" and the shitposting it provoked.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ZoneWizard on November 09, 2016, 12:08:51 AM
Hope that wasn't aimed at moi. I was serious. It isn't mario bros and if anyone cannot survive in the forest, chill at a mall.

Works for Romero *wink* =)

Sarcasm at its finest bro! Not only am I logical I'm funny ^_^
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on November 09, 2016, 12:11:43 AM
Reminder: realism is fine until it makes the game worse. See prior remark about my constantly stating "realism should compliment gameplay, not detract from it" and the shitposting it provoked.

Don't you dare play like you want, you will play like I want. My way if the only correct way of playing, and everyone will do as I say because I said so.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ZoneWizard on November 09, 2016, 12:32:19 AM
^^

While I agree with you on this sentiment. I have to side with realism even if I dislike it. I will always side with realism unless another aspect of the game is either missing or broken.

I had these arguments all the time for 5 years over at the forums for the "freebie" version of Ultima Online. They kept adding more crap and slapping a band aid on them while leaving entire features out because it was to much work all at once. Then it just became impossible to keep up with so many large portions either broken or missing.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheFlame52 on November 09, 2016, 12:33:51 AM
'Makes the game worse' is relative, but I agree that realism should compliment gameplay.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: mugling on November 09, 2016, 12:37:07 AM
Removing the words 'realism' and 'gameplay' from some of these posts leaves no readable argument...
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ZoneWizard on November 09, 2016, 12:47:51 AM
Removing the words 'realism' and 'gameplay' from some of these posts leaves no readable argument...

Realism in gaming 101:

Features that are based upon real life. Such as gravity. Cause and effect. While not everything must follow this general rule of thumb. The more realism in a game the end result is a far more option friendly and intuitive game engine and game experience.

I could give examples, but that presumes everyone here is unable to understand the nature of this game title. Without sarcasm this time, I agree with realism as well as fun. I just sit in the realism camp stubbornly because I rather something make sense than not. Intuitive design is always better in my opinion. I want to be pissed when I have to mundane stuff. Why? Because it reminds me of how pissed I would be if I tried to do something retarded like wearing clothing off a sh!t smelling maggot ridden bloated rotten corpse and think I'll have a nice day....not wearing undies and wearing those zombie pants....seriously....wtf? Why would I be ok and happy about this? lol

Optionally? sure, but it deserves to be in game.


































....Like pissing and pooping! Seriously, it is funny and makes one think about how badly they wanna run across a herd to escape or to have a load in your pants lol XD
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on November 09, 2016, 01:02:07 AM
Realism in gaming 101:

Features that are based upon real life. Such as gravity. Cause and effect. While not everything must follow this general rule of thumb. The more realism in a game the end result is a far more option friendly and intuitive game engine and game experience.

I could give examples, but that presumes everyone here is unable to understand the nature of this game title. Without sarcasm this time, I agree with realism as well as fun. I just sit in the realism camp stubbornly because I rather something make sense than not. Intuitive design is always better in my opinion. I want to be pissed when I have to mundane stuff. Why? Because it reminds me of how pissed I would be if I tried to do something retarded like wearing clothing off a sh!t smelling maggot ridden bloated rotten corpse and think I'll have a nice day....not wearing undies and wearing those zombie pants....seriously....wtf? Why would I be ok and happy about this? lol

Optionally? sure, but it deserves to be in game.

....Like pissing and pooping! Seriously, it is funny and makes one think about how badly they wanna run across a herd to escape or to have a load in your pants lol XD

Another friendly reminder.

C:DDA Design Outline (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5559.0)


Quote from: C:DDA Design Outline
We consider DDA a freeform, post-apocalypse, low-intensity, reality-based, roguelike, with a focus on survival-sim elements and a heavy emphasis on scavenging.

Low-intensity means that the game is not constantly high-pressure, and not every move must be precisely calculated. It’s OK to relax and enjoy it; there will be aspects that you need not mess with, and that’s OK.  Someone else will like those, and maybe even dislike the aspects that you enjoy.  But there’s enough to go around.  We neither need nor want competition for the “best” DDA player, and don’t even know how we’d define that.  The Rule of Fun is prime: if it isn’t fun, you shouldn’t be doing it.  That said, super-intense stuff may happen (and it may happen when you don’t want it to!) but the overall experience should come at you at whatever pace you choose to pursue. It should be just as possible to lead a slow and careful life in harmony with nature outside the cities as it is to make crazy laser-slinging assaults on superscience labs.


And here are a few nice thoughts (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/196663/Do_we_always_have_to_strive_for_realism.php) about realism, if anyone bothers to read it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ZoneWizard on November 09, 2016, 01:29:12 AM
Just mentioning a short and sweet realism idea. I don't need a huge column about something as what I made mention of already.

Fun is great but like our late friend JRR Tolkien had in mind while writing. Flights of fantasy are great, just write 3 steps behind every idea to give it a history. This suspends disbelief.

That coupled with my comment about what IS realism should give most ideas a helping hand if you just make it work. You can shoe horn just about everything as long as you MAKE it make sense.

That help? =)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Alec White on November 09, 2016, 01:36:31 AM
It was just a friendly reminder.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Voqar on November 14, 2016, 09:58:18 PM
So I tried to give the changes to the vehicle screen time but to me this is another "why change this" thing.  I'm not seeing any benefits to the new setup vs the tedium it introduces.  Simple things like putting water or gas into your vehicle (when you have multiple tanks at least) are now a mullti step hassle.  There also seems to be a bug with purifying water via FOODCO in that it somehow can magically turn a tank of dirty water into clean water in the same tank (whereas before you could only move dirty water to a clean tank via purification) - which isn't all bad since more clean water is good.

But again, overall - I see zero positives to these changes vs a couple of negatives and again I'm guessing this change was done because some dev thought it would be cool but didn't put enough thought into it all.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on November 14, 2016, 11:41:23 PM
So I tried to give the changes to the vehicle screen time but to me this is another "why change this" thing.

Required for generic tanks, mostly. Old UI couldn't handle those well.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: OldWillie on November 15, 2016, 12:14:28 AM
Long time lurker. I registered just to point out that the thread complaining about tedious makework changes to the game devolved into discussing the merits of individual nutrient absorption and detailed realistic wound cleaning in a video game.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on November 15, 2016, 12:57:46 AM
Doesn't hurt to discuss those, as long as everyone understands it's just brainstorming.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: OldWillie on November 15, 2016, 01:51:19 AM
Fair enough.  I do agree with the original post though; in the short time I've been following this game, each update is far more likely to make me wince than make me excited. There is a lot of bizarre Not Fun stuff being thrown in seemingly for the sake of adding tedium.

What is the general consensus on which release is the last good one?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on November 15, 2016, 04:38:38 PM
eh, it has mostly gradual swings good and bad. Game speed has only gone down, could use some increased efficiency.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Shopkeeper on November 15, 2016, 06:25:29 PM
Are you guys running cataclysm on actual potatoes? I know the great thing about CDDA is that you can do just that, but I've got a 3 going on 4 year old notebook that even when I ran into the mother of all hordes didn't buckle or slow down considerably. The only real performance issues I've come across have usually been due to whatever bug of the week development has managed to miss swatting.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on November 15, 2016, 07:12:15 PM
its not so much buckling performance, as menus, sometimes saves and turns in general just being.... not as fast as they used to be. Mostly its not very noticeable but if your used to Cata running at higher speeds it begins to get irritating. The game "runs" at normal speeds hordes and the like provide no issues to game speed. But start to horde the loot and you might start to notice that trying to do several moves, or craft something starts to get noticeably lagged in reaction to key presses.

Then again, Im running it in a wrapper. on a mac air. Not a lot of computing power to begin with. So I hardly have any room to complain.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: wad67 on November 17, 2016, 01:49:08 AM
its not so much buckling performance, as menus, sometimes saves and turns in general just being.... not as fast as they used to be. Mostly its not very noticeable but if your used to Cata running at higher speeds it begins to get irritating. The game "runs" at normal speeds hordes and the like provide no issues to game speed. But start to horde the loot and you might start to notice that trying to do several moves, or craft something starts to get noticeably lagged in reaction to key presses.

Then again, Im running it in a wrapper. on a mac air. Not a lot of computing power to begin with. So I hardly have any room to complain.

I'm running a fairly decent computer, but I still get performance problems too.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SpadeDraco on November 17, 2016, 03:27:32 AM
What is the general consensus on which release is the last good one?

The current experimental is fine. Most of the craptastic stuff (except Perfect Reliability which appears to be glitched currently) can be disabled with official mods. This is actually the rule in most cases. The big stink was over the fact that Filthy Clothes were forced on us without an option to disable them. This was compounded further by the fact that the project lead refused to let anyone do anything about the feature. This made the chunk of the community that isn't too fond of realism worry that future changes would be forced upon us in this manner, so we collectively threw a shit fit.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: viggolo on February 28, 2017, 02:36:10 AM

Myself and the couple people I know who play this have a late 2015 experimental backed up in a couple places and at this point we effectively consider it the final version. I don't even really have anything to say except this: Grats on running a great game into the ground.


Would you be so kind and PM me the version you are using. I have up to a few days ago been playing exclusively the 0.C stable and just now tried out the latest experimental and I can see where you're coming from.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on February 28, 2017, 11:44:47 AM
We fixed a lot of the problems mentioned here. Performance improved quite noticeably (especially crafting screen building), filthy is optional (though currently displays even when off - just displays), multiple engines are working again.

Can anyone sum up the still-relevant problems?

I see the painful generic tanks, not working perfect reliability (I'm considering removing engine fault system altogether - it was never really good), weak electric vehicles.
Anything else?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on February 28, 2017, 05:42:49 PM
Getting a fancy recovery vehicle just so I can remove broken treads from a tank? :V
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: viggolo on March 01, 2017, 11:25:26 PM
We fixed a lot of the problems mentioned here. Performance improved quite noticeably (especially crafting screen building), filthy is optional (though currently displays even when off - just displays), multiple engines are working again.

Can anyone sum up the still-relevant problems?

I see the painful generic tanks, not working perfect reliability (I'm considering removing engine fault system altogether - it was never really good), weak electric vehicles.
Anything else?

Those explosive zombies and nuisance shade zombies though... Fortunately those can just be blacklisted so no biggie

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on March 02, 2017, 12:25:09 AM
4. Desaturated colours in darkness. I get the idea but... why though. See above.

When it was first added, I hated it because it removes a lot of the detailing for tiles, but it does have the advantage of making it easier to gauge at a glance how bright an area is, so you don't blunder into the light and die of stupidity while doing a night raid.

5. Weapon magazines. They can't be disabled. Needless compexity, diverts attention away from fun gameplay (player patience and attention is a limited resource and diverting it into arbitrary micromanagement is bad game design. Having a large assortment of various ammunition and weapons to choose from is sufficiently complex.)

...isn't there a no magazines mod? >.o
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Taberone on March 02, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
We fixed a lot of the problems mentioned here. Performance improved quite noticeably (especially crafting screen building), filthy is optional (though currently displays even when off - just displays), multiple engines are working again.

Can anyone sum up the still-relevant problems?

I see the painful generic tanks, not working perfect reliability (I'm considering removing engine fault system altogether - it was never really good), weak electric vehicles.
Anything else?

Haven't updated my game in a week, so some of this might have already been fixed.

Item wielding times are kinda an issue. You can't get interrupted doing them, they always apply regardless of the situation (Wielding a gun from the ground because you have no space for it or disarming a NPC vs picking up a gun, shoving it into your backpack, and taking it out again) and they seem kinda extreme.

Tank drone bursts in and sets you on fire while you're taking several weeks to pull out a large fire extinguisher? Zombie Hulk charging around the corner and punting you into the stratosphere while you're trying to whip out a rifle? Angry NPC slowly tapping you to death with a .22? There's no interrupt. You can interrupt crafting and reading if something hostile comes near or hurts you, but not wielding? It also always takes a long time to pull out pretty much anything larger than a water bottle.

Item wield times applying to disarming NPCs is also a bit frustrating too, since you still have to spend a long time wielding whatever you disarmed from the NPC while he's free to beat you to death while you're unable to resist.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rycon Roleplays on March 02, 2017, 03:23:24 PM
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm really enjoying the direction of the game. I wouldn't call any aspects added agonizing at all. Keep up the good work everyone
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Grandpuh Ty on March 04, 2017, 03:41:47 AM
Why do people hate magazines so much? :C
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Taberone on March 04, 2017, 04:33:46 PM
Why do people hate magazines so much? :C

When they were first implemented, you had the issue of guns spawning without magazines, and magazines being way too rare. That's been fixed now, with magazines spawning in gun stores, and guns in gun stores spawning with magazines in them.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Steelfist on March 04, 2017, 05:10:52 PM
Is this a thread where you can vent? It is now!

I've been playing the game since it was first released, back when its only home was Bay12, and it didn't even have a forum. I've noticed that, since it became Cataclysm: DDA, the devs (IMO) have had problems of varying degrees in dealing with tedium and 'railroading', for lack of a better word.

Take, for example, gun stores. My typical playstyle went spawn, find backpack, find gun store, loot, become a nomad, raid bunkers, become Rambo. Nowadays, because gun stores are all locked up, there are several annoyingly long steps before I get to the loot phase. They aren't difficult, neither are they particularly rewarding. It just seems to add layer upon layer of tedium when you have to spend many real life minutes crafting a ram to smash through the store, or finding an item to help you make your way in.

Same goes, though much less so, for infections and zombie resurrection. I can forgive the latter, though, because I reckon it's an adequate sacrifice for the spawn system, but infections often amount to "cauterize until all is well then wait out the pain".

I'm not really sure I can say I'm a fan of how the game has panned out. I mean, I enjoy it, but I feel as though it has lost a lot of direction, focus and style that it had prior. To me, Cataclysm was never an ultra realistic survival sim (in many ways, it's still not!), but rather a zombie shooting roguelike with influence from L4D and a varied pace. I find it disheartening that it is becoming harder and harder to play it that way.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: viggolo on March 04, 2017, 05:51:00 PM
it wouldn't be just venting if you pointed out the things that you find to be negative and why you think so (which have been implemented within the last 6+ months).
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kevin Granade on March 04, 2017, 07:47:42 PM
I'm not really sure I can say I'm a fan of how the game has panned out. I mean, I enjoy it, but I feel as though it has lost a lot of direction, focus and style that it had prior.
I've seen this same statement a number of times, but I've never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now.  This makes it difficult to discuss.
To me, Cataclysm was never an ultra realistic survival sim (in many ways, it's still not!), but rather a zombie shooting roguelike with influence from L4D and a varied pace. I find it disheartening that it is becoming harder and harder to play it that way.
The direction of the game has explicitly been "survival sim" ever since the fork.  Saying it's a bad shooter is like saying it's a bad driving game.  It is, but it's also irrelevant, because it's a survival sim.

If someone wants to make a shooter mod, they can certainly do so, and it probably wouldn't be that hard, but I have no interest in making the core game a shooter or more action-y.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on March 05, 2017, 09:17:23 PM
I've seen this same statement a number of times, but I've never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now.  This makes it difficult to discuss.

Funny, I've seen a lot of assorted complaints about some of the changes, and a lot of explanations for why any given feature doesn't belong in the game, or why a given feature fails at whatever objective it obstinately accomplishes, be it pointless realism or unwarranted (even redundant) gameplay changes.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kevin Granade on March 05, 2017, 09:30:49 PM
I've seen this same statement a number of times, but I've never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now.  This makes it difficult to discuss.

Funny, I've seen a lot of assorted complaints about some of the changes, and a lot of explanations for why any given feature doesn't belong in the game, or why a given feature fails at whatever objective it obstinately accomplishes, be it pointless realism or unwarranted (even redundant) gameplay changes.
Good job completely missing the point as usual.
Was I talking about "assorted complaints"?  Was I talking about "(objections to) a given feature"? No I wasn't, but I guess you don't care since you have an axe to grind.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Weyrling on March 05, 2017, 09:59:14 PM
Funny, I've seen a lot of assorted complaints about some of the changes, and a lot of explanations for why any given feature doesn't belong in the game, or why a given feature fails at whatever objective it obstinately accomplishes, be it pointless realism or unwarranted (even redundant) gameplay changes.
I've also seen a lot of people complaining that particular features are terrible and should be taken out. Complaints are rarely useful, in my experience.
Many of the posts I've read on the subject boil down to "That's terrible, don't do that".

But if somebody sees something as a problem they're still going to try and fix it, telling them not to is just going to make them stop caring about your opinion.

I imagine alternate suggestions on how to solve a problem would be more useful and better received than destructive criticism.

I've seen this same statement a number of times, but I've never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now.  This makes it difficult to discuss.
I'm sort of curious about what 'previous incarnations' of the game had that is now missing, too.

What's missing is probably a 'void' that's now filled with other things that some players didn't want to have to think about, is my best guess.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on March 05, 2017, 10:21:02 PM
Good job completely missing the point as usual.
Was I talking about "assorted complaints"?  Was I talking about "(objections to) a given feature"? No I wasn't, but I guess you don't care since you have an axe to grind.

I was bringing it up because I was hoping that you would give your thoughts on some of the points having been brought up on the thread. A lot of arguments occurred here, and a lot of points were raised. Some subjective, some objective. Some I agree with, some I don't, etc.

In my case I was more joking about the fact that your first post on the thread was about someone's vague ideas about what the game has become, and not about the points that have come up that are more narrow in scope, and are more worth addressing.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Aluminumfoil on March 06, 2017, 03:33:44 AM
Do all guns actually spawn with magazines installed, now?  I haven't played in forever. 
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kevin Granade on March 06, 2017, 03:46:57 AM
Do all guns actually spawn with magazines installed, now?  I haven't played in forever.
It's not every gun ever, but yes they generally spawn with magazines.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on March 06, 2017, 03:51:13 AM
Do all guns actually spawn with magazines installed, now?  I haven't played in forever. 

Ones in gun stores generally won't have a magazine in them because they generally keep the mags out in gun stores, while in most other locations you'll typically find them with at least a magazine inside, if not ammo as well.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Aluminumfoil on March 06, 2017, 05:16:34 AM
Cool.  It might be worth trying out the experimentals again! 
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on March 06, 2017, 06:28:32 AM
Cool.  It might be worth trying out the experimentals again!

Maybe. There are still a lot of problems with it, some of which I agree are problems, and some I disagree with.

* Jacking I've personally gotten used to, but I understand if someone thinks it's pointless. There seriously oughta be some way to disable it though, and the lack of that probably exacerbated others decrying it as a bad idea.

* Filthy clothing is still there but more tolerable. But whoever thought that it's a smart idea to have filthy clothes display as such even if the mod is disabled doesn't have their head screwed on straight. If it has no effect, there's no sane reason for it to show as such. I legit first assumed it was broken or that I forgot to disable the mod, so that's a terrible idea.

* Nutrition system now apparently gives you debuffs and therefore works, but probably still unrealistically acute in effects since last I checked. This is bad because I don't personally feel that it actually serves it's intended game balance role (by the timer starvation is no longer a problem, you likely have a variety of food), and yet it doesn't really behave realistically, thus failing at both its purposes.

* Bionic limits I never noticed because they were half-implemented when first added. They only take effect with a debug trait. I'd call this laziness but don't really have any real objection to dealing with it one way or another.

* Vehicle faults exist and you'll probably never notice them because there's already so many things that can generate broken with any given vehicle. For me, it's maybe 1% of the time that a vehicle fault actually makes a vehicle unusable, and the few times it DOES happen, it's usually a part you can't craft. So my opinion is, again, like with a lot of the controversial features, its contribution to game balance is non-existent.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on March 06, 2017, 09:49:49 AM
But whoever thought that it's a smart idea to have filthy clothes display as such even if the mod is disabled doesn't have their head screwed on straight.

At first the "new filth" was mandatory. I moved it to a default mod, but forgot the display. Then the author of filthy mechanics followed up with a PR that would hide filth from display when the mod was disabled. Kevin vetoed that change...

In moments like this I ask "just why?" and it's not always "why do that?" - often it's "why do I bother? why am I still here?".
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on March 06, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
At first the "new filth" was mandatory. I moved it to a default mod, but forgot the display. Then the author of filthy mechanics followed up with a PR that would hide filth from display when the mod was disabled. Kevin vetoed that change...

In moments like this I ask "just why?" and it's not always "why do that?" - often it's "why do I bother? why am I still here?".

...wow. Dare I even ask WHY Kevin thought vetoing it was a good idea?

EDIT: On a related note, I am sorely tempted to sig that last line.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kevin Granade on March 07, 2017, 04:32:01 AM
When I'm wrong I'm wrong.  Further thought and discussion made me change my mind, merged the PR that reversed the "highlight filthy clothing when its effects are disabled" thing.

I honestly thought that it was a pertinent fact worth highlighting whether the clothing was filthy, whether it had direct effects or not, but I can see that a lot of people take highlighted items as being a much bigger deal than I do.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: CK_Kirbi on March 07, 2017, 05:23:07 AM
>.> I swear to god.. the three of you need to go drink and then get in a fist fight or something.

Glad to see that cooler heads and reason prevailed.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheWumpus on March 07, 2017, 11:16:13 AM
Well, I had a well written and eloquent post almost completely typed up and then somehow I managed to fat finger it and erase the entire damned thing. Fuck.

Kevin, this is your baby. If you want to turn it into a super realistic hardcore survival sim set in the near future with light sci-fi elements nobody is going to be able to stop you. As it stands now this is a game where it's possible to play as a psychopathic cannibal bearman, drive a tank into a refugee center, and eat the residents. And that's pretty damned cool. It just feels like the push towards more realism in a game about a zombie apocalypse caused by a blob from another dimension is kind of silly.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on March 07, 2017, 02:26:58 PM
Even if I'm always up to throw realism out the window for fun and satisfaction, realism handled correctly can be quite good and fun! It's just that every "realism" thing you put in the game has to translate to a good, gamified mechanic that works with all other mechanics that have been already stablished, and that's hard to do, even more in a community made game like this. But I'm positive it'll be a perfect game one day! All the work it has already is amazing.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Submarine on March 07, 2017, 04:07:50 PM
I just start playing Cata again and I think the filthy close and vitamins add a lot of game play. Without those 2 newly added game mechanics the whole tailoring and cooking craft is nothing worth for a early / mid @.

Something else.... I am no programmer what so ever but I was wondering if it would be possible to have vehicles have a template similar to how @ works.  This to improve to simulate a vehicle when being stressed or driving in the wet or snow enz.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Wasylus on March 07, 2017, 04:11:49 PM
Just wanted to write this: I played cataclysmDDA about ~2 years ago, i returned to playing it a few weeks ago and i find most of the changes either good or "neutral". The latter are things that don't add much to the game but don't detract from the experience or add tedium (i would count ammo magazines in this category).
I don't quite understand all the hysterical reactions and posts about "ruining" the game ? What ?
My only major complaint about the direction in which Cataclysm DDA is going is the stability. From my experience during those ~2 years or so it became a lot less stable. Not to the point of being unplayable but to the point of being much more annoying. So if i were to write a rant it would be about stability and how it is getting worse as years of development pass by.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: SenorOcho on March 08, 2017, 03:00:53 AM
Wasylus, a lot of specific things complained about in this thread were either fixed or rolled back well over a month ago.

I'm pretty much with TheWumpus on this stuff.  The main draw of C:DDA for me is building ridiculous vehicles and mowing down zombies and otherworldly horrors with absurd jury rigged weapons.  I've already got UnReal World for when I want to play a hardcore survival sim.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 08, 2017, 03:11:37 PM
Even if I'm always up to throw realism out the window for fun and satisfaction, realism handled correctly can be quite good and fun! It's just that every "realism" thing you put in the game has to translate to a good, gamified mechanic that works with all other mechanics that have been already stablished, and that's hard to do, even more in a community made game like this. But I'm positive it'll be a perfect game one day! All the work it has already is amazing.
this

I'm pretty much with TheWumpus on this stuff.  The main draw of C:DDA for me is building ridiculous vehicles and mowing down zombies and otherworldly horrors with absurd jury rigged weapons.
also this
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on March 08, 2017, 05:17:40 PM
Even if I'm always up to throw realism out the window for fun and satisfaction, realism handled correctly can be quite good and fun! It's just that every "realism" thing you put in the game has to translate to a good, gamified mechanic that works with all other mechanics that have been already stablished, and that's hard to do, even more in a community made game like this. But I'm positive it'll be a perfect game one day! All the work it has already is amazing.

A good elaboration of my opinion of realism-in-games I'd say.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Valpo on March 09, 2017, 02:13:49 PM
I am cool with every realism addition as long as performance does not suffer to much.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Steelfist on March 10, 2017, 11:28:52 AM
I'm not really sure I can say I'm a fan of how the game has panned out. I mean, I enjoy it, but I feel as though it has lost a lot of direction, focus and style that it had prior.
I've seen this same statement a number of times, but I've never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now.  This makes it difficult to discuss.
My biggest two complaints are the seeming (keep in mind that I may just not be surviving long enough to see it) lack of advancement of the lore of the game, and that often the realism features implemented seem to clash with every other aspect of the game, and often do this for long periods of time until they are nicely melded in.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kevin Granade on March 10, 2017, 05:40:40 PM
I'm not really sure I can say I'm a fan of how the game has panned out. I mean, I enjoy it, but I feel as though it has lost a lot of direction, focus and style that it had prior.
I've seen this same statement a number of times, but I've never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now.  This makes it difficult to discuss.
My biggest two complaints are the seeming (keep in mind that I may just not be surviving long enough to see it) lack of advancement of the lore of the game, and that often the realism features implemented seem to clash with every other aspect of the game, and often do this for long periods of time until they are nicely melded in.
And original cataclysm handled these issues better how?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Aluminumfoil on March 13, 2017, 04:26:24 AM
I gave the current experimental a good try.  Guns and magazines, which were my biggest barrier to enjoyment, feel pretty good, now. 
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rot on March 13, 2017, 04:40:56 AM
I immediately took a liking to gun magazines. Don't understand why people have a negative opinion about them.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on March 13, 2017, 05:16:22 AM
Early magazines were a giant pain: to reload a gun, you had to unload it, load the magazine, then load it back into the gun.
And most guns spawned without magazines, so you could have a whole stack of unusable guns.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rot on March 13, 2017, 07:20:35 AM
I didn't mind having to take the magazine out to load, and if I had a gun with no magazine I'd just spawn them in if I couldn't find it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Aqma on March 13, 2017, 08:03:44 AM
I could not stomach going through the full thread (tried a few pages, but maaan ...). Just to add my voice, I like the direction the game is going, I think realism adds a lot to the experience.

This discussion always gets a bit difficult, every person has a different view or different thing they like in the game. For example, I personally enjoy the gritty part of surviving in difficult conditions more than butchering endless waves of zombies - I get a much bigger sense of achievement if I manage to survive against all odds. However I realize this might be just my personal opinion.

I think it is never an easy choice here and the devs have done a great job at balancing this out over time.

By the way, everyone talks about tedious in such a bad way, however I wonder if everybody understands that without a certain amount of this realism/grinding/tedious (or however you want to call it) they might get bored way faster. Games usually work on the idea of carrot on a stick, if you have insta gratification then there is not much to strive for and it becomes a snooze fest.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: pisskop on March 13, 2017, 11:44:21 AM
well i mean when the average lifespan of the pc was measured better im hours than days i think there was less consideration on the player for evolving, in-game lore
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: deoxy on March 13, 2017, 09:53:16 PM
I immediately took a liking to gun magazines. Don't understand why people have a negative opinion about them.

For the first while, magazines where CRAZY STUPID rare and guns were always found without one, so basically, all (non-shotgun, non-revolver) guns were useless, funny-shaped clubs.  That's the biggest reason I know of - it left a pretty bad taste in the mouth for those who play gun-heavy.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Mecares on March 13, 2017, 10:16:58 PM
Strangely some people get very upset when the experimental versions experiment.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on March 13, 2017, 10:21:57 PM
Strangely some people get very upset when the experimental versions experiment.

Quite clever, there, pal.
Though it is mostly a thing that well, the people upset is the result of the experimentation, and through critical thinking is the only way of making the feature better. There are whiners yeah, but there are people that know how the game works that can and do help here in the forums.
Also, there is a tendency that experimental features don't get rolled back or remade, and sometimes not even improved, they just stack. I still want to use filthy clothes, but i don't want to get a river and the world's most evasive soap bar.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: deoxy on March 13, 2017, 11:03:25 PM
Strangely some people get very upset when the experimental versions experiment.

That wouldn't be as big a problem if it hadn't been SO long since the last stable - there are a lot of "core" features that only exist in the experimental at this point.  If there was a new stable every 6 months, you'd probably get fewer complaints and a lot fewer angry rants/whines.

Note that I'm not complaining about it (hey, it's free!  I'm not the one doing the work!), just commenting.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zanos on March 20, 2017, 07:08:05 PM
Strangely some people get very upset when the experimental versions experiment.

That wouldn't be as big a problem if it hadn't been SO long since the last stable - there are a lot of "core" features that only exist in the experimental at this point.  If there was a new stable every 6 months, you'd probably get fewer complaints and a lot fewer angry rants/whines.

Note that I'm not complaining about it (hey, it's free!  I'm not the one doing the work!), just commenting.
Hit the nail on the head, I think. The other issue is that reverting to an older build, even one from last week or so, is extremely difficult unless you have a local copy. If I don't think to backup my version before I grab the new one I can very well wind up with a broken game until the experimental is fixed.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: redxlaser15 on March 21, 2017, 03:42:55 AM
     I just had to skip a lot of the stuff because I'm not gonna read 20+ pages right now :/ But here is some of my own opinions, which I'm sure will help a lot.
     what I think should be is more configurability. there is the 'simple' version, then an option for 'advanced.' Advanced goes into far more detail, split by catagorys including a search bar. Simply is more of the basics.
    One of the main options should be a 'mode' type. Part of that has to do with things being 'nerfed,' so there is Nerfed mod and then the mode without it. And also an option for 'respawn,' for those milk drinkers who can't stand permanent death. Seeing as skills are capped now, one of the modes includes no-skill-caps also. With advanced mode these things can be changed even further for more customization!
     Of course, advanced is visible but not in the way, and you can do a lot of changing without going in there to deal with a bunch of extra bits.
     I've found that in terms of filthy clothing, it's much more worth making your own stuff usually instead of find things. That goes for more than clothing too. Why scavenge for clothing from houses and off zombies when you can make your own stuff to the point of being a modern-day knight with a flaming sword and hulkish-mutant-muscles? Or a nomad on a death-cycle with a laser-pointer crossbow? Turn your NPC friends into walking-talking-meat shields by giving them OP (but combursum) armor so you can run away in a dangerous time! Among other things.
     I'm still trying to figure out the whole gun-thing now. I don't understand why my gun will work at some point and not at the other. But reloading my shotgun multiple times is really annoying. What's the point of that? I should change to something like - 'reload all the way?' or just assume you want to reload all the way and if you stop doing that task it is only partially done.
     NPCs are much better, and I like the idea of them needed to eat and stuff. it makes sense. BUT GET YOUR OWN WATER AND FOOD YOU LAZY BUM!! I have some ready nearby you idiot! You should also be able to teach your followers stuff that YOU know. You should be able to give them a command of scavenge stuff for yourself that isn't allowing them to pick stuff up!
     I have found the game be a major pest when I'm trying to do something that takes a long time, (Like dissasemble thread) Becuase it keeps coming up with something like: "You spot a zombie nearby. Stop crafting?" No. Never for a regular zombie when I have 10 dodging skill. They LITERALLY cannot touch me and I don't care about a hundred of those things trying to fight me. There needs to be an option of 'ignore everything?' or 'ignore everything unless hurt by something that is not poison/coughing ect.' I can't do anything about me coughing right now, and it doesn't matter enough to me either!
     Expiramental is the new stable...
     That thing needs to be fixed where missions keep breaking because of the fact that I'm TRAINING.
     Is there a flaming zombie? There is an acid and a spitter, why not flaming? Honestly I'd hate that but still...
     There should be a way with the tailors kit to modify clothing so that it give environmental protection also. You can give it warmth and defense, but not enviro-protection?
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: wad67 on March 22, 2017, 06:39:42 AM
Strangely some people get very upset when the experimental versions experiment.

That wouldn't be as big a problem if it hadn't been SO long since the last stable - there are a lot of "core" features that only exist in the experimental at this point.  If there was a new stable every 6 months, you'd probably get fewer complaints and a lot fewer angry rants/whines.

Note that I'm not complaining about it (hey, it's free!  I'm not the one doing the work!), just commenting.

I agree, not having a stable version with the gigantic amount of quality of life features present in the experimentals seems to be the cause.

Once you play the experimental version, it's tough to go back to 0.C. Sure, you can try and identify an experimental version that is relatively stable and use that, but then you miss out on newer features.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: vassock on March 28, 2017, 02:49:33 AM
The magazines, the filthy clothes, the boom cranes, the book learning nerf, now I see on Reddit that electric motors are nerfed, and I'm pretty sure I heard solar was nerfed more at some point.

By the way, how is this "SOLAR ELECTRIC A FAD, GASOLINE REIGNS SUPREME" business supposed to be justified decades in the future? Is this game taking money from Exxon or something?

Solar panels on a regular car MIGHT be enough to power some of the auxiliary electronics, like a GPS. I don't know if it will even be enough for the internal car electronics (like the ignition system). Solar power does NOT work well on a small scale at all and a "solar panel-powered car" is kind of ridiculous. Expect to need a small solar farm to power something like a Tesla in real life.
Quote

Point is, this game has been run into the ground with neckbeardy "realism" fetishism, and there's no real reason for anyone who isn't a Dwarf Fortress enthusiast with OCD to bother since interesting content additions have been inversely proportional to pointless crippling nerfs for ages now.

It's not even worth lobbying for changes or worrying about mods at this point since there are just so many nerfs and sources of tedium running so deep now. It's all reached critical mass.

I've had few disagreements with the game mechanics, with perhaps the exception of how installing/removing some things is so "difficult." I have no formal electronics training, but I could easily figure out how to wire a solar panel. This game makes it seem like rocket science.
Quote

Myself and the couple people I know who play this have a late 2015 experimental backed up in a couple places and at this point we effectively consider it the final version. I don't even really have anything to say except this: Grats on running a great game into the ground.

A year from now when NPCs still suck and all those portals still lead nowhere, and you're busily implementing a realistic toenail growth and trimming system, remember this post.

Adios.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on March 28, 2017, 02:57:10 AM
Man, i think of solar panels as a really fun way to get a different kind of gameplay from the cars, rather than having fuel hotspots you gotta have some planning because of the limited energy reload. Sadly they got nerfed due to realism. Got a fun mechanic away. I hope they buff themone day! After all it's the future, with flying robots and stuff. Would be fun.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Zhilkin on March 28, 2017, 10:44:17 AM
You can mod out solar panel by increasing its "epower" value in vahicle_parts.json.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: amimai on March 28, 2017, 05:45:49 PM
I remember when cooper first came out I had me a solar powered death train!

forget about zombies, it could crush cities, it was hilarious... ahh the good old days

now we are practically limited to building what amounts to a light tanket, what is wrong with the world when you can't build a moving sky scraper when you want to!

and don't tell me its not realistic! its already been done, behold 7000tones of rolling death to zombie kind!
(http://i.imgur.com/89bfkSI.jpg)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rysith on March 28, 2017, 06:05:54 PM
You can mod out solar panel by increasing its "epower" value in vahicle_parts.json.

I've found it's better to increase the fuel value of batteries, since that handles the storage side of it too - it's no good to have a solar car that charges all the way up during the day and runs itself dry at night with engines + headlights. On that:
 - Electric, gas, or both should be viable options for cars. Electric is quiet, gas is fast to fuel. It seems like the weight of storage batteries prevents their use in small, quiet scout vehicles and the inability to make a proper solar field for something larger basically squeezes electric cars out of any niche until you have a dozen quantum solar panels to use. Enabling proper hybrid-electric cars would probably help a lot here.
 - An auto-pulp option for corpses would be nice, or even just a more clear map view of still-viable corpses. After a big fight it's annoying to wander around with the 'V' menu looking for all of the corpses scattered about.
 - Increased power and resources should be seen as a way to present new choices or unlock new options, not something in need of nerfing. As a pair of examples, dealing with excessive player armor by letting hulks and brutes throw them for damage anyway is good. Dealing with unlimited solar power by making UPS charging stations 10% efficient is not - it just makes the process more annoying and doesn't enable any new interesting interactions.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: amimai on March 29, 2017, 12:06:06 AM
What I really want is a bigger, meaner, electric engine. Something like a "huge electric motor" that you can use to power a real tank, and probably another their of power cells or a honest to god nuclear reactor for it.

I loved my giant death rig, it was hilarious once I finished it.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: TheWumpus on March 29, 2017, 04:09:08 AM
What I really want is a bigger, meaner, electric engine. Something like a "huge electric motor" that you can use to power a real tank, and probably another their of power cells or a honest to god nuclear reactor for it.

I loved my giant death rig, it was hilarious once I finished it.

You can edit electric motors in the .json files to do whatever you like. And there is a microreactor in game, but it's very rare.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Azrad on March 29, 2017, 10:48:03 AM
Stopped playing around a year ago, or roughly a little more than half a year. Anyway, stopped because of getting caught up in other games, plus some post-recovery thing for surgery... ahh, if only healing the bod was as easy as the game.

Anyway, I'm playing right now. Dunno about vehicles, so can't really give an opinion. As for filthy clothing, I kinda dig it, though for most part I kind of feel that it's lacking. Like, can't put my finger on it, it just feels that there's something missing.

As for gun magazines, I dig them. They're nice, though I recall reading that initially magazines were rare so it's understandable why people would be irked.

All in all, so far I don't really mind the changes. Like, I haven't really noticed anything yet that frustrates me in terms of in-game tedium.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: OldWillie on March 30, 2017, 06:50:35 PM
Man, i think of solar panels as a really fun way to get a different kind of gameplay from the cars, rather than having fuel hotspots you gotta have some planning because of the limited energy reload. Sadly they got nerfed due to realism. Got a fun mechanic away. I hope they buff themone day! After all it's the future, with flying robots and stuff. Would be fun.

That's something that's always bothered me a little bit. Things seem to get changed for realism purposes only if they make things harder or more tedious. Like it takes over three in-game days to craft enough long string to make a rope, which is probably realistic. But it sure isn't fun. Meanwhile, any "realistic" hardware store would carry thousands of yards of rope and chain, but having that in the game would make things more convenient so it's a no-go.  Realistically, even a cheap walmart rifle is accurate to at least a thousand yards, and 00 shotguns are accurate to around 1000 feet. The in-game ranges are a tiny fraction of that.

I'm not complaining about those mechanics in game, because I like the challenge. But it does get a little weird when something very fun is nerfed in the name of realism when so many other wildly unrealistic mechanics are accepted. 
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on March 30, 2017, 07:27:39 PM
That's something that's always bothered me a little bit. Things seem to get changed for realism purposes only if they make things harder or more tedious.

Now, you see why I've dumped unending amounts of snark and said the whole "realism should compliment gameplay, not detract from it" thing a hundred times?

Because more often than not, the devs don't do that. They prioritze realism that just makes life harder, and give less focus on elements of realism that make things easier.

I've lost track of all the times I've been annoyed by something in-game and realized how trivial it'd be to work around a given situation using real-life logic.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: EnDSchultz on April 03, 2017, 12:37:03 AM

Now, you see why I've dumped unending amounts of snark and said the whole "realism should compliment gameplay, not detract from it" thing a hundred times?

Because more often than not, the devs don't do that. They prioritze realism that just makes life harder, and give less focus on elements of realism that make things easier.

I generally agree with this sentiment. I take no issue with Mr. Granade's vision of making a survival sim - but at the end of the day, what we still have here is a game, complete with zombies, quantum teleporting cybernetic implants, and extradimensional horrors. By definition, it is never going to be completely "realistic".

And as a game, it seems important that the pursuit of realism needs to be tempered by good old fashioned game design principles. New features should ideally work towards the goal of a unified, consistent, and rich player experience. I posted in another thread a few months ago that games like Cataclysm and Dwarf Fortress are fun because their depth of gameplay and attention to detail serve to immerse the player, and give him/her a sandbox in which to create fun and compelling stories... even (nay, especially) the more absurd and ridiculous ones that may not be entirely "realistic", per se. Realism and detail need to give the game character, not just provide arbitrary obstacles for difficulty's sake.

Quote
I've lost track of all the times I've been annoyed by something in-game and realized how trivial it'd be to work around a given situation using real-life logic.

I remember when filthy clothes were first introduced. I thought it was interesting. It made sense. It was realistic. But I could not for the life of me figure out how to get them clean, until I dug around and looked it up. Oh, I need to craft a washboard, and soap, and need an ass-load of water... but I've got a jug of bleach, and a toilet full of water... why can't I just dunk this filthy t-shirt in a toilet full of bleach water and be done with it? It was a gameplay obstacle that was "realistic" - and yet completely unrealstic in how restrictive it was. There was exactly one way to skin this cat, even if true "realism" would dictate that to be absurd, and that a creative person could easily come up with an alternative besides the one solution the game offers. Because it is a game, inevitably limited by how much can be coded into it. Therefore, a dev needs to be judicious about what sort of things get added: by ensuring that they complement and integrate with other features already existing, and that they enhance rather than detract from the player experience.

But anyway, those are just my thoughts and I'm frankly not entirely sure why I'm contributing them. This discussion has gone in circles for 33 pages. Mr. Granade seems pretty set in his ways, and as an open source, free project, the impression I get is that the development process is kind of like herding cats anyway. I understand the devs have no real obligation to any of us and that CDDA is basically a hobby that happens to get posted on the internet. Still, I hope I don't presume too much to think they nevertheless take enough pride in their work to want to create something that is enjoyable and high quality.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kevin Granade on April 03, 2017, 04:37:15 AM
I've lost track of all the times I've been annoyed by something in-game and realized how trivial it'd be to work around a given situation using real-life logic.

Any examples you can provide?  Always looking for new use cases.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: StopSignal on April 03, 2017, 04:57:50 AM
Now that i think about it, it's like drawing, the more realistic you draw, the more easily the flaws are seen. I guess we should make a thread to list off all the little workarounds real life would easily have to compete with the game's small logic flaws.

If enough are said here, i'll try to compile them all for easy viewing. Though obviously not all will be solved or solved instantly, as devs are most probably working on bigger stuff.

Already saw the clothes one. It's one i have said so myself. We all already discussed it though, so please tell new ones!
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on April 03, 2017, 05:13:43 AM
Any examples you can provide?  Always looking for new use cases.

The whole "can't use bleach for laundry" thing the last poster brought up is a good one.

And then there's a couple things I regret not doing when I was adding stuff to More Survival Tools, namely not making it possible to deconstruct fire rings, since it's literally just a circle of rocks.

I also recall that there was once discussion on the idea of being able to chamber a round into guns that realistically allow it, a feature that came up back when magazines were painfully rare. That was vetoed for two reasons. The first was it might be a hassle to code, and I can get that. The second was that allowing magazine-fed guns to be used as single-shot rifles somehow detracts from game balance. Several months AFTER that discussion, I find that statement kinda laughable. It does kinda highlight the earlier sentiment, that the devs tend toward realism that makes the player's life harder or more tedious, and don't push as hard for realistic gameplay if it makes things easier on the player.

And the other poster earlier also mentioned things like how rare rope is in hardware stores compared to reality, using it in contrast to how realistically time and material-consuming it is to make your own. The "Walmart rifle has better range" nitpick I can understand, because we can't really DO realistic ranges with reality bubble and dispersion math getting in the way. But I do solidly agree that a shotgun not even having range comparable to a pistol is a bit annoying and unrealistic, given it leads to not even being able to shoot across most rooms in a house.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Ketrian on April 04, 2017, 03:37:42 AM
"I also recall that there was once discussion on the idea of being able to chamber a round into guns that realistically allow it, a feature that came up back when magazines were painfully rare. That was vetoed for two reasons. The first was it might be a hassle to code, and I can get that. The second was that allowing magazine-fed guns to be used as single-shot rifles somehow detracts from game balance. Several months AFTER that discussion, I find that statement kinda laughable. It does kinda highlight the earlier sentiment, that the devs tend toward realism that makes the player's life harder or more tedious, and don't push as hard for realistic gameplay if it makes things easier on the player."

I would note that some firearms also don't allow you to do this, because they have what is called a magazine disconnect in them. Basically they won't fire without a magazine in the firearm. This is mostly seen in pistols, and it was originally designed for safety purposes, say some idiot ejects the mag but doesn't clear the chamber before showing it off as 'unloaded'.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Coolthulhu on April 04, 2017, 04:23:41 AM
For me, the realism generally represents tedium that could easily be handwaved away.

For example:

The problem is implementing restrictive ideas, then relying on the player to un-restrict them. Or restrictive ideas that only seem restrictive at first, but turn out to be trivial to work around.

There are ways to implement potentially tedious ideas well, but from my experience, the realism is not implemented with care for it being done well, just at all.
For example, gun cleaning implemented as daily cost of an unit of gun cleaning goo preventing accumulation of penalties (requiring more goo to undo once accumulated or allowing less-than-daily cleaning setting) would be fine: would restrict the number of guns in use, require no player action other than setting up cleaning once, and would have a real in-game cost.
But DDA realism style would instead look like this: gun randomly accumulates penalties, requires manual cleaning action per every gun (possibly with nested menus), but allows using very cheap craftable gun cleaning substance, possibly just a plain rag. Possibly with gun penalties being hidden from plain sight so that player has to calculate them from other visible signs. This would add nothing to the game except keypresses and math done out of the game.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: GrizzlyAdamz on April 04, 2017, 07:03:06 AM
Huh.
Were rare mags really so bad?
Playing an experimental from mid-march now, and I'm tripping over stanags.
Makes makeshift mags rather pointless if you can grab 2-3 factory-made off the first MP squad you happen across.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Profugo Barbatus on April 04, 2017, 11:32:22 AM
Huh.
Were rare mags really so bad?
Playing an experimental from mid-march now, and I'm tripping over stanags.
Makes makeshift mags rather pointless if you can grab 2-3 factory-made off the first MP squad you happen across.

The mag issue was back last year, when the whole thing was first introduced. 95% of weapons straight up didn't spawn with magazines if they needed them, and enemies rarely ever dropped them. It was pretty bad. Once magazines became reasonably common (Weapons having them, decent drop rate from soldier zombies and the like) it was all good.

And yea, STANAG's out the Wazoo is pretty common, but that's accurate. Standardized mags for the most common rifle patterns in the US should be everywhere :P.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on April 04, 2017, 05:00:38 PM
There are ways to implement potentially tedious ideas well, but from my experience, the realism is not implemented with care for it being done well, just at all.
For example, gun cleaning implemented as daily cost of an unit of gun cleaning goo preventing accumulation of penalties (requiring more goo to undo once accumulated or allowing less-than-daily cleaning setting) would be fine: would restrict the number of guns in use, require no player action other than setting up cleaning once, and would have a real in-game cost.
But DDA realism style would instead look like this: gun randomly accumulates penalties, requires manual cleaning action per every gun (possibly with nested menus), but allows using very cheap craftable gun cleaning substance, possibly just a plain rag. Possibly with gun penalties being hidden from plain sight so that player has to calculate them from other visible signs. This would add nothing to the game except keypresses and math done out of the game.

I don't want to be excessively negative and salty over ideas, but...yeah. That is exactly what I fear gun cleaning would look like if implemented.

This is why I get leery of so many realism-focused suggestion nowadays, because there's been a trend of not implementing them sanely. I can certainly go objecting to a suggestion and say "no, there's high risk of the implementation falling flat" but this tends to get me yelled at.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kevin Granade on April 04, 2017, 05:48:35 PM
The problem isn't that you give feedback or have concerns, the problem is you post meaningless one line objections to things that provide no actual feedback.  If you're going to criticise an idea, state specific concerns you have, and ideally a way to avoid the problem or improve the idea.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Rysith on April 04, 2017, 05:53:21 PM
For me, the realism generally represents tedium that could easily be handwaved away.

Some kind of automation (and especially NPC-based automation) system seems like it could open up a lot of space there. I'd love to be able to come back to my base or vehicle with the remains of the three wolves and a moose that tried to murder me on my way through the forest and say "preserve this meat and put it in the food pile"[1] rather than needing to fiddle through a few rounds of batch-craft dehydrated meat / reload tool / drop. It would also be great (and provide something of a purpose for NPCs) if I could drop a pile of meat in front of an NPC with some cooking skill and say "preserve this meat and put it in the food pile". With a system like that even "you need to clean guns each day"[2] could become a character-time cost rather than a human-time cost, which seems much more acceptable.

In general, I think that 'realism' tweaks that result in better player immersion (hunger/thirst/fatigue/stamina, for example) are good, and (as you said) changes that result in the human needing to keep track of things outside the game or tedious repetition (like vitamins or filthy clothing) are not. And, where possible, it seems like externalizing changes to allow people to modify them (like the recent externalization of fuel energy values) is best of all.

[1] Having designated a preferred tool / recipe for preserving meat and a particular zone as the food pile, of course
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on April 04, 2017, 07:17:46 PM
The problem isn't that you give feedback or have concerns, the problem is you post meaningless one line objections to things that provide no actual feedback.  If you're going to criticise an idea, state specific concerns you have, and ideally a way to avoid the problem or improve the idea.

Right. I've already since elaborated my concerns in the specific suggestion thread, in that particular case. :V
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Kevin Granade on April 05, 2017, 04:30:51 AM
The whole "can't use bleach for laundry" thing the last poster brought up is a good one.
Seriously?  Bleach is not detergent, you can't wash clotes with just bleach.  This is exactly the kind of suggestion that gets rejected out of hand, not because it would help the player, but because it doesn't actually work like that.  Making various kinds of detergent reasonably common has the same outcome and reflects reality.
And then there's a couple things I regret not doing when I was adding stuff to More Survival Tools, namely not making it possible to deconstruct fire rings, since it's literally just a circle of rocks.
Sure? It's a pile of rocks, so I'm not sure how that helps the player.
I also recall that there was once discussion on the idea of being able to chamber a round into guns that realistically allow it, a feature that came up back when magazines were painfully rare.
I don't know who said anything about balance, if you're attributing that to me you need to provide a link, because I definitely never said that.  If anything it's the opposite, it's pointless to implement it because it's so incredibly ineffective.
Also, it doesn't really work, as has been pointed out, quite a few guns have interlocks that make this impossible, others have a breech that makes it impossible, and even if it does work it's terribly impractical to reload.
The only compelling reason to even want this feature was if magazines were going to continue to be rare as hell, and the easier solution was to fix magazine spawning, which is what we did.
And the other poster earlier also mentioned things like how rare rope is in hardware stores compared to reality, using it in contrast to how realistically time and material-consuming it is to make your own.
It's funny how people only mention how common things should be when it's something that's really valuable.  Get me some good resources on how common various items should be and I'll happily apply them to te spawn lists, but "I can't find foo so it should be more common" isn't a compelling reason to adjust things, obviously players will keep asking for rare and valuable things to be more common.
But I do solidly agree that a shotgun not even having range comparable to a pistol is a bit annoying and unrealistic, given it leads to not even being able to shoot across most rooms in a house.
I agree, this needs to happen and is just something we haven't gotten around to, but overhauling the range model of the game isn't something I'd characterize as "trivial".

The majority of your examples either don't follow real-life logic or don't help the player :P
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Random_dragon on April 05, 2017, 05:42:48 AM
True, there are some flaws in those examples, those were mostly the ones that came off the top of my head. Some of them, like the "soap and a washboard is unrealistically the ONLY option for laundry" is still a realism failure, just the first idea that struck me related to that was a bit derpy. :V

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Seriously?  Bleach is not detergent, you can't wash clotes with just bleach.  This is exactly the kind of suggestion that gets rejected out of hand, not because it would help the player, but because it doesn't actually work like that.  Making various kinds of detergent reasonably common has the same outcome and reflects reality.

Some other containers that could be used as wash basins would be a better small step in the right direction, as would finding other logically valid options for soap.

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Sure? It's a pile of rocks, so I'm not sure how that helps the player.

As for the More Survival Tools example that's just a general minor regret of mine really. It's related to the general annoyance of a LOT of constructions making no sense to require a hammer and screwdriver to take apart though. Unfucking that would be realistic and convenient for the player by ensuring that they can dismantle stuff they shouldn't need those tools for.

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I don't know who said anything about balance, if you're attributing that to me you need to provide a link, because I definitely never said that.  If anything it's the opposite, it's pointless to implement it because it's so incredibly ineffective.
Also, it doesn't really work, as has been pointed out, quite a few guns have interlocks that make this impossible, others have a breech that makes it impossible, and even if it does work it's terribly impractical to reload.
The only compelling reason to even want this feature was if magazines were going to continue to be rare as hell, and the easier solution was to fix magazine spawning, which is what we did.

As for the chambering a round thing, I'd need to find the discussion about that, but I could've sworn that game balance was ONE of the things brought up in it. I do think that the idea still has a niche, but it isn't as essential now that magazines aren't so rare.

Quote
It's funny how people only mention how common things should be when it's something that's really valuable.  Get me some good resources on how common various items should be and I'll happily apply them to te spawn lists, but "I can't find foo so it should be more common" isn't a compelling reason to adjust things, obviously players will keep asking for rare and valuable things to be more common.

Regarding rope, it isn't really valuable. It's just a big pain in the ass to make. If that's value it's fake value. It isn't really used in a ton of recipes or constructions, but when it's NEEDED it becomes annoying to obtain. I think the poster that cited "very common in hardware stores" was mostly just giving that for the sake of contrast with how tedious rope is to make. The idea that, with respect to ropes, how you obtain it's realistic in ONE way but unrealistic in another, and used it as an example of how realism only seems to get priority if it's to the player's detriment.

Quote
I agree, this needs to happen and is just something we haven't gotten around to, but overhauling the range model of the game isn't something I'd characterize as "trivial".

This one I'm afraid you missed the point of. My point there was that shotguns have awful in-game range RELATIVE to pistols. I don't think the range system needs an overhaul just to make shotguns not be melee weapons. :V
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: ZoneWizard on April 05, 2017, 10:23:49 PM
Had to chime in. While not wholly about doing laundry...

Having more than 1 option to do a rather common practice seems a tad bit under whelming to put it nicely. 1 bar soap + washboard + **ck ton amount of water = only way to do laundry. Seems a little sparse.

If all we had was a "Pistol" or "Rifle" in the game, it would be incredibly boring and a dead game. Only way to kill a zombie? Got you covered...use a Pistol or Rifle....no other means matters.

Not even asking for anyone to change the laundry thing. Just wanted to point out, that sometimes we just need to have options. That is what most of the realism is to this game.


PS-Animal breeding would be nice. Been awhile since I've come to the forum. We have this yet? Since by time I come back, we may yet have it lol XD
Feel free to message me on this. I'd appreciate it =)

Side note- Since when do shotguns behave worse than pistols? I tango with a gun turret at far as version 5200ish. Just wondering about this topic...I maybe just figure that the lack of proper aiming at range is due to the fact that a shot shell should only be from across a room. To which I can shoot very reasonably, even with a bayonet on the end too =)

But I wouldn't mind better accuracy. Technically, it should be reasonable to shoot 30 yards. I could hit skeet at 150 yards....ok I'm understanding the dilemma as the game stands in this regard >_>
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: GrizzlyAdamz on April 06, 2017, 06:12:59 AM
Options...for laundry
Eeh yeah but 'realism' stuff for things like this get bloaty fast. Weapons at least are integral to combat, a big chunk of gameplay.
Do we really need more than 1 or 2 options for -washing clothes-?
(I mean shoot, is filthiness even still a part of the more recent experimentals? I thought a bunch of it got moved to a mod..)
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on May 13, 2017, 05:44:15 PM
Rope is something I can see being one of the first things to get raided from stores. When people think "survival" rope of some kind often comes forefront to the mind, even if they do not have the survival skills or knot tying skills to know any half decent ways to actually put it to use. I can see rope being in many peoples "things to loot" lists. Plus boxing rings mean there is plenty of rope. The same argument (minus boxing rings) can be said about most "rareisher than should be" items.

Though screwdrivers being impossible to self craft without duct tape still bother me even as it makes an infinite amount of sense from a play perspective.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: xironfistx on May 13, 2017, 06:46:15 PM
you could even manage to make a screwdriver out of a spoon,butter knife or a fort to be honest if you bend them till they break.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: Litppunk on May 13, 2017, 07:17:46 PM
The argument against this is that you wouldn't have the necesary leverage compared to a true screwdriver, although gameplay it's more of a separating low risk - low reward, high risk - high reward play-styles. The screwdriver is used as a pivotal tool allowing for the making of higher tier equipment, and constructions, etc...

All that said, I am not against keeping the screwdriver as is. I just wish there was a more discreet and less gamified "unavailable until you are Lvl:__ looking way that this strikes me as.
Title: Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
Post by: iceball3 on May 15, 2017, 01:44:54 AM
Consideration about rope, if it hasn't brought up yet, you can salvage ropes from cars pretty easily, last I checked. Unless it got changed, seatbelts dismantled from cars yield a short rope.
You can even smash it out if the underlying frame is almost dead but the seatbelt is in good enough condition.