Author Topic: Dual wield  (Read 8979 times)

Offline Slax

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 09:58:19 AM »
Quote
Realism
Good thing this is a game. Strength and dexterity, otherwise you probably won't hit much at all.

Offline i2amroy

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 10:56:43 AM »
Quote
Realism
Good thing this is a game. Strength and dexterity, otherwise you probably won't hit much at all.
Tough luck. If you didn't want realism in your games you shouldn't have picked a game deved by people who enjoy Dwarf Fortress. :P

Offline TheRealTenman

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2013, 11:44:39 AM »
I don't get it....The only style of dual wielding that is useful is the relaxed pistol ninja.
One hand at a time but switch between hands and targets and keep both arms moving.
The reason it is faster is because you don't turn or pivot. You turn your head and raise an arm.
If a guy is on your left use your left hand. If a guy is on your right, use your right.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . Z. .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.Z . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . .@. . . . . . .
. . . .Z . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .Z . . .

Three turns time to kill all four. (assuming all hits and insta kills.)
While it would take four turns in game function. It would take a shorter clock time.

Character is facing nearest Z

0.0) Both arms begin moving
0.3) LH moved to closest Z
0.8) LH is aimed at closest Z
0.9) RH is in basic area of next target
1.0) LH shoots closest Z

1.4) RH aimed to top left Z
1.5) LH is in basic area of next target
1.6) RH shoots top left hand Z

2.0) LH aimed at bottom right Z
2.1) RH is moving towards next target
2.2) LH shoots bottom right Z

2.5) Character twists/pivots to help aim
2.8) RH aimed at last Z
2.9) Character feels badass
3.0) RH shoots last Z

Not radically faster but still better than:
1)Pivot aim shoot.
2)Pivot aim shoot.
3)Pivot aim shoot.
4)Pivot aim shoot.

The only other real world application is cover fire/bullet spam in which case you should use a light machine gun.


Melee is however a completely different thing. Two light weapons, even two pipes, are insanely good for combat.

If you have some muscles (like me) you can easily hold a metal pole/pipe in each hand and move well.
Again...the best application is a relaxed ninja. Smooth movements at all times. Throw in some push kicks and you have a f*** awesome fighting style.


Compare a boxer to a boxer using one hand...
Compare walking to hopping on one leg...

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Offline Mrnocamera

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2013, 03:58:01 PM »
Also with dual wield player can carry two jerrycan in hands. (or something else)

Now I thinking of a person with a red jerrycan and a revolver walking down a street shooting Zeds.
Who says that you need to be good at games, anyway?

Offline drake1storm

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2013, 05:28:22 PM »
In real life, you will almost never see a professional wield two guns. The primary problem is that, unless you are firing a .22, the recoil is going to cause the bullets to fly haphazardly if you try and fire with any sort of speed. Another issue, as has already been mentioned, is the "tunnel vision" effect that occurs when aiming down a sight. If you have ever tried it, you will notice that, almost immediately, everything starts to blur except for the sights and the target (at least it was immediate with me and crossbows). You simply cannot aim them both at the same time and expect to have it still on target by the time they are ready to fire.

However, dual wielding melee is another story. Depending on the style involved, dual weapon wielding can be used for 2 general fields of attack (each with a corresponding type of weapon used).

 There is the "defense" way of wielding which relies on two average length one handed swords constantly switching between defense and offense. This requires keen concentration and focus as you have to carefully watch both blades so as to both hit your target and not damage your other blade while defending. This is the style you see more in TV, and it generally is about equivalent to a slightly more effective "shield and sword" tactic.

Then there is the swifter way of wielding. This involves using two smaller blades, or one long and one short, to maintain momentum and keep a constant flurry of attacks going. This requires a lot of endurance, flexibility, and situational awareness to be pulled off effectively as you should NOT try and stop a sword when doing this. You should instead attempt to merely deflect the blade and use that to keep the momentum of attacks going. This style is seen on TV most often as the "berserker" wielding two small axes, but, unlike in tv, wearing any but the heaviest of armor will not impede you very much.



In short, if you were to put this in the game, dual wielding guns would need an absolutely soul soulcrushing reduction in accuracy and be limited to guns with smaller rounds. For melee, they would need either high intelligence and strength to dual wield defensively, or high perception and dexterity to wield swiftly. If they don't have high enough skills, they are very likely to flub everything and/or cut themselves to shreds on accident (pick up two sticks and start swinging. Chances are good you will leave with bruises. Imagine that with blades.).
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Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2013, 05:33:50 PM »
This has been covered before, but here it is again.
"dual wielding" as in holding a pistol in each hand and firing both simultaneously is NOT going to be effective (I'm not saying it won't go in, just that if it does it will be ludicrously ineffective because of pelalties).  The rationale for why this is so have been well-outlined already in the thread and I'm not going to get into it.  This will probably be represented in a very high rate of accumulation of recoil if you try to do this.

"holding something in your off-hand" is something I want to support.
If you're holding something in your off hand and a gun (even a small pisol) in your primary hand, you'll have a penalty assessed due to lack of stability. Probably based on the weight/volume of the carried item, so e.g. a small flashlight or a small melee weapon might have a minimal penalty, but another pistol is relatively heavy and might cause you problems.

Along with adding support for holding items in the off-hand, we'll get stricter about tracking how many free hands you have to perform actions, and automatically perform the actions needed  E.g. if you want to light a stick of dynamite and throw it while you are wielding a gun, the actual actions performed will be:
'a'ctivate dynamite ->
put up gun, take out dynamite, take out lighter, light dynamite, put up lighter
(you end up holding dynamite (lit) in your primary hand)
't'hrow dynamite ->
throw dynamite, draw gun
You may notice this sort of thing will "waste" some time by performing unnecessary actions sometimes, for example maybe you want to light and throw several sticks of dynamite in a row, in that case you'll want to holster the gun first to avoid triggering the item swapping stuff.

On the other hand, this buffs pisols, as it's much faster to holster/draw a pistol (especially if you have a hoster)

Even for simple stuff, like opening a door, if you have both hands occupied, it will put up an item, open the door, take out the item again.

I want to stress that when this happens (which will be a while, it's pretty invasive and complicated), we will be VERY careful to not cause disruptions to doing things simply, with the extra actions just costing in-game time.  If you're in a hurry though and need to make every second count, it will be better to think ahead about a sequence of actions and try to minimise this sort of overhead.
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Offline GlyphGryph

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2013, 06:38:58 PM »
Kevin's pretty much covered the core of what we want - a multi-handed system rather than dual-wielding.

If we do have dual-wielding, it will end up being a side effect of that (most likely) and at least for guns probably won't be any more effective, especially with the "cost to adjust aim" we've been talking about including. It would essentially be extra bullets for more than the cost of an extended magazine, meaning you're almost always better off with a single weapon out at a time. Even pistols are properly meant to be fired with 2 hands, after all.

I would like to see more interesting stuff done with melee, because let's be honest, if you're fighting well in real life you're almost always going to be using both hands. This doesn't mean you're always going to be holding two weapons, of course - using both hands to support one weapon, using your off-hand to grab and hold, wielding an offhand defensive tool.

At the very least, I'd like to be able to add support for the "lock and strike" approach that is so integral to my own fighting style. (Hold, whether with hand or weapon, THEN stab!) But honestly, it's going to require a good, high quality proposal describing something that's legitimately worth implementing, and adds to gameplay without detracting from it. Despite how much I want something like that, I'll be the first to admit that I've yet to see such a system that is more than what's described below.

What we'll probably end up doing is simply allowing you to swap your "primary hand" at will, and give a defensive block bonus for (some) items held in the off-hand. That's fairly straightforward to implement across weapon types, works equally well for swords or pistols, and gains most of the benefit people would like to see, I think. We might implement a penalty for your non-dominant hand just so we can have the ambidexterous trait, heh. But I think that's really the extent of what we'd want to see.

Offline i2amroy

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2013, 09:52:05 PM »
I would like to see the ability to select left/right handedness at the character screen and then an ambidextrous trait. Though of course the game itself would just handle things with a "primary/offhand" metaphor (though I could see it having an effect for damage where if your right side gets hurt then you might have more problems as a right-handed character then a left handed one).

Offline KA101

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2013, 11:39:55 PM »
Re arcade games: True, BUT IME they also send out twice as many hostiles and change up hit tracking.  Never saw an arcade shooter programmed to permit one player using both guns.

Re off-hand: Bear in mind...

Re mutations: that payers with 4 or 8 Tentacles really ought to have multiple off-"hands", if not possibly other primary hands.  (I'd favor multiple off-hands, with Multidexterity available as a seperate upgrade from Ambidexterity.)

Offline ejseto

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2013, 01:42:57 AM »
Why does this need to be realistic again? We ARE talking about a zombie game, after all. A zombie game where half the mutations are beneficial. A zombie game with fusion powered robots guarding bionics that can allow you to become invisible or teleport or shoot lasers from your finger. A zombie game where half the crafting recipes don't make any sense. Turn 4 shotgun slugs + superglue + gasoline into FIVE explosive slugs that are as powerful as 40mm grenades? Turn a pipe, 2x4s and nails into a submachinegun? I don't even see how you'd make a pipe rifle without springs, which are in the game but not in the recipe for some reason, let alone a self-loading firearm. I say bring on the gun kata!

Anyway, I don't see it really being so far-fetched compared to pretty much everything already in the game. Yeah, if you had 2 pistols you probably wouldn't fire them both at the same time except in an emergency. But it's still, assuming you can fire well enough one-handed with your off-hand, twice the ammunition with the ability to "burst fire" at close range. Would it be a pointless complication (in terms cost/benefit ratio for the feature) to just alternate firing between them with an added dual-fire burst mode for point-blank emergencies? As for accuracy penalties, I wouldn't think dual-wielding would affect it that much as long as you aren't also dual-firing as well. If you were using the other arm to brace the one firing, I would only expect a small difference.

Do you think Rick on TWD would hesitate to pull a second pistol if he had one in any of the many situations where he's forced to shoot zombies point-blank while crawling under a car or some other obstacle? You also have to consider that the reason it's unrealistic to use 2 pistols is that handguns are for hunting people, and people fight back in cunning ways, like using long distance to screw up your dual-wielding aim. Zombies don't have that cunning. Unless people are going to become the primary antagonists of the game (personally I wouldn't mind that, I didn't watch TWD for the zombies), I think dual-wielding would be a useful and reasonable addition. And the cool factor ranks up there with beneficial mutations and bionic implants.

Offline Hyena Grin

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2013, 01:51:14 AM »
Hrm.

Don't really like dual wielding. But there are cases where it makes sense.

Fencing (real fencing) is historically a dual-wielding style, using a rapier and a dagger. There was a famous female warrior-general in Chinese history who fought with two small swords. But most of the time a free hand is better than a weapon.

Dual wielding guns is silly. Maybe pistols, but that's right out of the movies.

You could make dual wielding really not worth it unless you take some perk for it like Ambidextrous. But really what I want out of this is offhand support for makeshift (and riot) shields. But that's been talked about at length in other threads.




Offline GlyphGryph

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2013, 02:30:54 AM »
On the other hand, I would like to dual wield finger lasers.

Offline KA101

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2013, 02:37:07 AM »
On the other hand, I would like to dual wield finger lasers.
No imagination.  ;-)  Mutate to 8 Tentacles first and install 8 of the things, Granfaloon GlyphGryph.

Offline TheRealTenman

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2013, 03:51:03 AM »
Quote
Tentacles
Shouldn't tentacles have a problem with wielding any thing, let alone guns. They are a long, strong, single finger....That is all.

Holding basic melee weapons should work fine but any thing else should have a major accuracy drop.
Bladed weapons should have a lower critical chance. Due to lack of articulation.
Guns should need two arms to use at all.

On the other hand if you have 8 arms rapped around a rifle you should have damn good control and stability.


Quote from: whoever said this
Dual wielding is only in the movies.
Guns akimbo is retarded and only in media.
Holding two pistols is insanely useful if used correctly.

There was a famous hitman, "Gunner", between the 20's and 50's that used two m1911's. He never fired them at the same time. He never missed. He ALWAYS got a head shot. He got a hit for his mate then went crazy and shot him 80 odd times... That's right 12~ magazines.

He got arrested for his friends murder. Went to trial and said it wasn't him, he is a one hit killer. Then got nailed for all the other hits.

I just tried to fact check and unfortunately Google thinks I want to know about codename47 and his hardballers...
If any one knows of him, back me up please.


One technique I have seen used on youtube is "pointing".
Putting your index finger parallel with the barrel and using you middle finger for trigger pull.
Pros:
Easy, accurate (for dual wielding), fluid.

Cons:
Recoil is amplified, apparently it is uncomfortable, unusable on certain pistols due to slide action.
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Offline KA101

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Re: Dual wield
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2013, 04:13:34 AM »
Quote
Tentacles
Shouldn't tentacles have a problem with wielding any thing, let alone guns. They are a long, strong, single finger....That is all.

Holding basic melee weapons should work fine but any thing else should have a major accuracy drop.
Bladed weapons should have a lower critical chance. Due to lack of articulation.
Guns should need two arms to use at all.

On the other hand if you have 8 arms rapped around a rifle you should have damn good control and stability.
<snip>

I'd be satisfied with Grabs and maybe Sweep (=Trip) attacks.  As it is, Tentacles can slap, and certainly do slow down reloading.

One problem is that it's not entirely clear what sort of Tentacles the mutated PC has.  Large thick ones with suckers on (I think Slax has an avatar with some??), thin ropy ones that would justifiably be low-ST, or something else?