Author Topic: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.  (Read 34423 times)

Offline Thwap

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6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« on: September 07, 2016, 01:33:41 PM »
The magazines, the filthy clothes, the boom cranes, the book learning nerf, now I see on Reddit that electric motors are nerfed, and I'm pretty sure I heard solar was nerfed more at some point.

By the way, how is this "SOLAR ELECTRIC A FAD, GASOLINE REIGNS SUPREME" business supposed to be justified decades in the future? Is this game taking money from Exxon or something?

Point is, this game has been run into the ground with neckbeardy "realism" fetishism, and there's no real reason for anyone who isn't a Dwarf Fortress enthusiast with OCD to bother since interesting content additions have been inversely proportional to pointless crippling nerfs for ages now.

It's not even worth lobbying for changes or worrying about mods at this point since there are just so many nerfs and sources of tedium running so deep now. It's all reached critical mass.

Myself and the couple people I know who play this have a late 2015 experimental backed up in a couple places and at this point we effectively consider it the final version. I don't even really have anything to say except this: Grats on running a great game into the ground.

A year from now when NPCs still suck and all those portals still lead nowhere, and you're busily implementing a realistic toenail growth and trimming system, remember this post.

Adios.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 01:37:41 PM by Thwap »

Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2016, 02:16:10 PM »
Electric motors were buffed, not nerfed. Especially the weaker ones, which got a big efficiency boost.

I agree about the filthiness and boom cranes.
Filthiness (its current form) kinda creeped up and I wasn't there to veto it. It was fine when it was a strict trait with no way around it, but turned into a major annoyance. I'm pushing for removal, but it isn't working too well...
Boom cranes are partly my fault. I OK'd them hoping they'll work, but they turned out to be bad.

Solars are still good, I don't know what you mean.
NPCs got a lot of work since "back then". They are worth keeping around, they defend against other NPCs, can be equipped with things etc.

Honestly, as uninformed and emotional this thread is, we actually do need ones like it. Otherwise it's very easy for someone to go all "you know what does this game need? realistic simulation of discomfort from sleeping in armor/tool damage from use/boots wearing down when walking/skill rust". I keep shooting down ideas like this because I learned from the earlier mistakes, but filthiness managed to happen anyway.

Offline survivornaginata

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2016, 03:38:32 PM »
as far as i know both filty clothes and magasines and nutrition  can be disabled in options if you dislike them.i personally dont mind amd like added realism and they didnt infleunce my game at all but i have specific play style-melee character who use almost  exlusively  self made clothes though i dont mind using some fllthy clothes for temporary or desperate protection when my clothes get teared apart.

As for npc i basically turn every game i play into squad simulation with my npc team doing most of killing for me.with added pikcup options some of food managemtnt is eliminated but more can be done especially their annoying running from you as you finish quests and must chase them with cars to tell them you finished.

as per filthy clothes i find their color usefull in searhching for objects other than clothes.their penalties are small basically naglible and i dont know whats the fuss.simple make your own clothes or get clean ones in buildings.cleaning them is aslo not that difficult.on normal difficulty its quite easy to raid houses on edge of town and get some clean clothes to absolve morale penalties.

steel booms are probablly thing which inflenced my game most and make problems with recovery of  damaged heavy vehicles.but as avaible heavy vehicles were basically middle end game for me  i kind of like added difficulty in obtaining them.

I would like all of them to stay in game and if most people mind their existensce they can be mods for difficulty.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 03:45:46 PM by survivornaginata »

Offline Jarlaxlejr

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2016, 03:54:04 PM »
 Honestly the only thing that has been a huge pain is filthy clothes and honestly I see why my character might be grossed out by wearing flesh and blood soaked clothing.
 The magazine system is awesome, I actually look forward to when specific items can be put into backpacks/bags but maybe that's just me.
 The NPC's have come so far since I first downloaded this game I see no reason to think you're just not trolling or haven't tried them out. If you haven't tried them out, do so. It'll take a little time to figure out all the stuff you can do with them now but they are tons better.
 All in all this game has come along way since the first time I played it, there is always a TON of new content and I love it all. Took a 2 month break awhile back, downloaded latest experimental and it was almost like a new game!
 I guess some people just don't like change.

Offline BeerBeer

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2016, 04:03:18 PM »
I guess I kinda wish some of it was automated. I mean, I appreciate the detail and the effort, but I don't appreciate chores. Ya know?

Detail tends to bring further design and usability challenges, e.g. magazines vs. which ammo type to load into them... repeatedly.

- Automatically refill partially filled magazines while idle or walking if identical ammo is carried. Or is that good behaviour?
- Clean all worn and carried filthy clothing automatically when standing next to a water source.
- Option to pass time for 1-3 days when "at a safe location". Read and eat automatically or randomly, prioritizing carried stuff or nearby stuff first.

And then there's this sort of thing: In fact I think washed cotton or wool clothes should get wet like towels, and wet clothes should wreak havoc at cold or windy weather until they're dry. But if you just create the wetness part without the cold affecting the player, that's just, well, pathetic and an annoyance.

Also, I in fact think there isn't ENOUGH simulation. All the major areas of simulation are just... lacking. They aren't properly interconnected. They're just a collection of individual mechanics. Calorie consumption vs. body heat production vs. weather conditions vs. clothing vs. dehydration vs. exertion. But hot ambient temps do increase thirst, I think, which is good. One major area that's missing is moisture build-up beneath clothing. With wrong clothing in wrong weather and under moderate exertion, you'll start sweating like crazy... and sweating means getting wet, which can be very, very bad. Clothing has permeability. Something like a raincoat doesn't let any sweat to evaporate. That's why we have gore-tex and its kind (it lets water vapor through but not liquid water).

But the problem is really the programming skill and personal energy reserves. Coders do what they can. It's bit like how cops work - they solve A) the crimes (bugs) they CAN solve and B) the really serious crimes (bugs) that just can't go uninvestigated.

Another major thing is uninformed playerbase. We're gamers, not seasoned survivalists. Some of us look for the detailed simulation, some of us want relaxed gameplay within the confines of one's own accumulated knowledge. Most of us don't know all the things that go into surviving in the woods, or surviving after the society has collapsed. It's... actually complex and detailed stuff. Personally the amount of knowledge almost cripples me, psychologically speaking.

People will complain about obvious discrepancies, and when they're addressed, the results might be... unfavourable or surprisingly displeasing, even demoralizing.

But, you know... what can ya do? *SHRUG*

What to blame here, really? We're humans - imperfect and limited, never satisfied and always looking for the next thing. Capable of getting bored and tired. Unwitting addicts prone to failure. Such grand and glorious existence, no? 8D
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Offline Findulidas

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2016, 04:15:14 PM »
While I agree on the fact that realism should not go over the rule of fun, rule of cool or rule of awesome I still think you are a bit too harsh. If not emotionally biased. In addition Im personally fairly unimpressed by basically calling people neckbeards with OCD that dont agree with you. The only people I know that use expressions like that are real social rejects on 4chan and/or immature and insecure teenagers.

Offline SpadeDraco

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2016, 04:53:21 PM »
I wouldn't have a single complaint with this game at all if the devs made more of this shit optional. The reason you rarely hear me griping about nutrition and faulty parts is because I'm free to turn them off before I start up a game. Having filthy clothes and lifting equipment Jsoned or made optional would be a decent attempt at compromise.

Offline BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2016, 06:44:09 PM »
While I agree on the fact that realism should not go over the rule of fun, rule of cool or rule of awesome I still think you are a bit too harsh. If not emotionally biased. In addition Im personally fairly unimpressed by basically calling people neckbeards with OCD that dont agree with you.
I concur.
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Offline jcd

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2016, 08:56:24 PM »
Honestly, as uninformed and emotional this thread is, we actually do need ones like it. Otherwise it's very easy for someone to go all "you know what does this game need? realistic simulation of discomfort from sleeping in armor/tool damage from use/boots wearing down when walking/skill rust"
My feelings exactly.

I recently played a game (meaning i reach mid game+ /  played for 200 days or more) after an 8 month period.
One (not the only one) reason i haven't played that much recently is all these realism mechanics.
They usually sound fine and good (weapon durability etc.), but tend to be grindy and add nothing really important.


To be sure, i have not contributed very much to cata, but i've been around for 2,5 years now. Nerfs are easy to do and required from time to time (EV needed many nerfs to stop being a non-brainer). But overdoing it is really bad for the game and needs care.


IMO, what cata needs are the hard-to-do stuff, that people (especially new devs) would hate to do (since they are complicated to achieve). Older devs do some of these, but their time is limited and not nearly enough usually. Off the top of my head:

- Fixing/rebalancing the food/nutrition system in order to not be either "just cooked meat" or "always grinding for food" or "scurvy/calcium deficiency" - but still to not require spending half a day looking for food (even if it is realistic for an apocalypse)

- NPC ability to do things independently (could abstract this and not have them do it in real time) without nagging the player for a glass of water

- NPC-bases reworked

- NPC questlines expanded & NPC faction wars

- Z-level interactions & expansion (still requires fixing the LOS system and noone but Coolthulhu has touched them, correct?)

- Non-flat map, other biomes, climbing onto trees and cliffs (needs the z-levels fixed first and is a ton of work on its own)

- More water stuff. Swimming expanded, buildings, boats, NPC riverboat pirates!

- Reworked map generation. JSONise it as much as possible and make it easy to work with.

In general, we do not need too many nerfs and we do not need to many new monsters, or items, or recipes, or materials. But we need more interesting world!
In short, i would like cata to focus on expanding the world (eg. there was a Railroad PR for a loong time, was half ready but never completed :'( ) and the people within it.

But as i said, i am not the one doing the work, which is the most important thing in an Open-Source project. So my words are not backed with work. Still if devs agree, there could be some sort of roadmap and guidelines for new contributors.

As a design path, i would like small-scale mechanics that do not have overwhelming effects - but interact in interesting ways with each other (and are mostly unsusceptible to player influence - thus not grindy)


Anyway, just my 0.02Euros, hope it is of use to someone.


EDIT
For the record, i got to say that i actually do like the magazines system, specifically.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 08:59:33 AM by jcd »

Offline vultures

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2016, 09:58:56 PM »
Hi there fella CataDDA-tors, long time no see. :-)

Most sincerely, I grabbed my last experimental just before the "yummy" clothes nerf kicked in, and I've just downloaded the latest nightly to check it and say hello to everyone. Kinda busy with work and all, I still own every single Cata build I've downloaded and I'm looking forward to dive in tonight's one, too.

I haven't been idle all the way 'till tonight, and I've gotta say there are a lot of folks challenging the idea zombie clothes are all but useless. The initial game phase, the moment you're honing your skills and gathering equipment and supplies, heavily relies upon making use of whatever pieces of clothing you can salvage. I don't feel the need to point out, though it is implied, that newcomers may find this particular modification exceptionally heavy to embrace.

Never have I insisted on devs' decisions and never should I, so all I'll leave is a thoroughly thought-of suggestion. Find a sufficient mechanism, that's all I need to say. Think about game design, whereas getting rid of items earned on your adventuring path shouldn't hamper character progression. If an item is bad, offer a shorter path to salvaging whatever scraps might be useful - or just plainly destroy it and clear the path forth. Don't introduce mechanics that feel unnatural to a casual gamer, make use of the player base instead. It should prove enough for every future feature-test you've got in your plans.


I've made this short just so I could go and play latest CataDDA. Stay sound, I love ya all.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 10:00:35 PM by vultures »
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Offline Random_dragon

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2016, 10:09:23 PM »
I have always, repeatedly, advocated the idea that realism needs to ADD to gameplay, not detract from it. Despite the OP's use of Dwarf Fortress as an example, I enjoy the realism features of DF a lot more than I enjoyed most of the "realistic" additions to this game.

I was present for the foundation of magazines. I agree that having made a way to disable them was a smart idea, but personally they add to the gameplay dynamics far more than catching scurvy or not wearing clothes that are ALREADY too tattered to wear.

And then there were features like the sewing change to a long action. This is sensible in THEORY, but in practice it balances sewing by adding player hassle and excessive thread consumption, and when it was first added the chance of item damage was royally fucked in the ass, and this making repairs MORE unrealistic than they used to be.

I was also the one that added shields, and the mechanics behind them. Some of the foundation is annoying, like being unable to hold a jerrycan if you're wearing a briefcase. I would've been fine with adding shields to medieval mod as purely passive armor, but Kevin and Coolthulhu insisted otherwise. Perhaps I shoud've added lesser penalties like attack roll debuffs or something in between "can wield this" and "nope, fuck you" but what I added ALREADY tested the limits of my abilities.

Also? Filthy clothes, their mere existence isn't the problem. It's the fact that they do NOT have the intended effect of balancing zombie clothes, and they are purely a morale effect. Dwarf Fortress makes body filth affect odds of getting infection from injuries. Filthy clothes having that effect would be perfectly logical.

Instead you have an effect that does jack shit to prevent players from using flithy clothes, is a pain in the ass to clean up, and is FAR LESS effective a balancing element than the pre-exisitng feature of zombie clothes spawning with random damage. That deters players from wearing kill drops lest it get torn to pieces. A small hit to morale, in a game where 90% of the things you can do will affect morale, is a literally useless feature.

I also want to point out the amusing coincidence that the drama between Kevin and I hit its peak, and I was booted from the project, a bit over 6 months ago. :V

Offline ApatheticExcuse

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 10:14:43 PM »
There is a roadmap/design doc.

http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5559.0

It seems as though attention is not really being paid to it thought. If you look back through the suggestions forums, you'll also notice that things that were shot down in say, 2014 as tedious and un-fun are now in game. Here's a few examples:

(click to show/hide)

A few examples. I'm pretty sure I could find more if I wanted to.

I agree about the filthiness and boom cranes.
Filthiness (its current form) kinda creeped up and I wasn't there to veto it. It was fine when it was a strict trait with no way around it, but turned into a major annoyance. I'm pushing for removal, but it isn't working too well...
Boom cranes are partly my fault. I OK'd them hoping they'll work, but they turned out to be bad.

For some reason, the concept of only one of the more active devs getting why this crap makes for a bad game bodes poorly to me.

I wouldn't have a single complaint with this game at all if the devs made more of this shit optional. The reason you rarely hear me griping about nutrition and faulty parts is because I'm free to turn them off before I start up a game. Having filthy clothes and lifting equipment Jsoned or made optional would be a decent attempt at compromise.

I don't think anyone could find fault with doing things this way. The devs would be free to introduce whatever they please, "good" or "bad", and the rest of us would be free to like or dislike it without it making the game suck.

I was also the one that added shields, and the mechanics behind them. Some of the foundation is annoying, like being unable to hold a jerrycan if you're wearing a briefcase. I would've been fine with adding shields to medieval mod as purely passive armor, but Kevin and Coolthulhu insisted otherwise. Perhaps I shoud've added lesser penalties like attack roll debuffs or something in between "can wield this" and "nope, fuck you" but what I added ALREADY tested the limits of my abilities.

C'mon RD, everyone knows jerrycans are a twohanded job!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 01:14:59 AM by ApatheticExcuse »
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Offline Random_dragon

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2016, 10:17:44 PM »
For some reason, the concept of only one of the more active devs getting why this crap makes for a bad game bodes poorly to me.

No idea what Rivet's opinion on these game design fuckups are, but she at least is generally as sensible as Coolthulhu about game design, moreso than Kevin.

Offline ApatheticExcuse

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2016, 10:21:40 PM »
For some reason, the concept of only one of the more active devs getting why this crap makes for a bad game bodes poorly to me.

No idea what Rivet's opinion on these game design fuckups are, but she at least is generally as sensible as Coolthulhu about game design, moreso than Kevin.

I dunno, I took the "I wasn't there to veto it" thing to mean that Cata is always on the precipice of tumbling into a bog of wretched, horribly unfun design choices, and that this brave knight is the one person who stops the un-fun from consuming everything on a fairly regular basis.

But maybe I'm just reading into that a bit much.
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Offline Random_dragon

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2016, 10:24:14 PM »
Right. And while I would've have been able to outright veto the idiocy, having a (relatively) sane voice to suggest better applications of design ideas, and point out obvious fuckups, would've maybe make the game's descent into shit a bit less rapid. :V