Author Topic: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.  (Read 32281 times)

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #495 on: April 04, 2017, 05:48:35 PM »
The problem isn't that you give feedback or have concerns, the problem is you post meaningless one line objections to things that provide no actual feedback.  If you're going to criticise an idea, state specific concerns you have, and ideally a way to avoid the problem or improve the idea.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
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Offline Rysith

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #496 on: April 04, 2017, 05:53:21 PM »
For me, the realism generally represents tedium that could easily be handwaved away.

Some kind of automation (and especially NPC-based automation) system seems like it could open up a lot of space there. I'd love to be able to come back to my base or vehicle with the remains of the three wolves and a moose that tried to murder me on my way through the forest and say "preserve this meat and put it in the food pile"[1] rather than needing to fiddle through a few rounds of batch-craft dehydrated meat / reload tool / drop. It would also be great (and provide something of a purpose for NPCs) if I could drop a pile of meat in front of an NPC with some cooking skill and say "preserve this meat and put it in the food pile". With a system like that even "you need to clean guns each day"[2] could become a character-time cost rather than a human-time cost, which seems much more acceptable.

In general, I think that 'realism' tweaks that result in better player immersion (hunger/thirst/fatigue/stamina, for example) are good, and (as you said) changes that result in the human needing to keep track of things outside the game or tedious repetition (like vitamins or filthy clothing) are not. And, where possible, it seems like externalizing changes to allow people to modify them (like the recent externalization of fuel energy values) is best of all.

[1] Having designated a preferred tool / recipe for preserving meat and a particular zone as the food pile, of course

Offline Random_dragon

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #497 on: April 04, 2017, 07:17:46 PM »
The problem isn't that you give feedback or have concerns, the problem is you post meaningless one line objections to things that provide no actual feedback.  If you're going to criticise an idea, state specific concerns you have, and ideally a way to avoid the problem or improve the idea.

Right. I've already since elaborated my concerns in the specific suggestion thread, in that particular case. :V

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #498 on: April 05, 2017, 04:30:51 AM »
The whole "can't use bleach for laundry" thing the last poster brought up is a good one.
Seriously?  Bleach is not detergent, you can't wash clotes with just bleach.  This is exactly the kind of suggestion that gets rejected out of hand, not because it would help the player, but because it doesn't actually work like that.  Making various kinds of detergent reasonably common has the same outcome and reflects reality.
And then there's a couple things I regret not doing when I was adding stuff to More Survival Tools, namely not making it possible to deconstruct fire rings, since it's literally just a circle of rocks.
Sure? It's a pile of rocks, so I'm not sure how that helps the player.
I also recall that there was once discussion on the idea of being able to chamber a round into guns that realistically allow it, a feature that came up back when magazines were painfully rare.
I don't know who said anything about balance, if you're attributing that to me you need to provide a link, because I definitely never said that.  If anything it's the opposite, it's pointless to implement it because it's so incredibly ineffective.
Also, it doesn't really work, as has been pointed out, quite a few guns have interlocks that make this impossible, others have a breech that makes it impossible, and even if it does work it's terribly impractical to reload.
The only compelling reason to even want this feature was if magazines were going to continue to be rare as hell, and the easier solution was to fix magazine spawning, which is what we did.
And the other poster earlier also mentioned things like how rare rope is in hardware stores compared to reality, using it in contrast to how realistically time and material-consuming it is to make your own.
It's funny how people only mention how common things should be when it's something that's really valuable.  Get me some good resources on how common various items should be and I'll happily apply them to te spawn lists, but "I can't find foo so it should be more common" isn't a compelling reason to adjust things, obviously players will keep asking for rare and valuable things to be more common.
But I do solidly agree that a shotgun not even having range comparable to a pistol is a bit annoying and unrealistic, given it leads to not even being able to shoot across most rooms in a house.
I agree, this needs to happen and is just something we haven't gotten around to, but overhauling the range model of the game isn't something I'd characterize as "trivial".

The majority of your examples either don't follow real-life logic or don't help the player :P
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline Random_dragon

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #499 on: April 05, 2017, 05:42:48 AM »
True, there are some flaws in those examples, those were mostly the ones that came off the top of my head. Some of them, like the "soap and a washboard is unrealistically the ONLY option for laundry" is still a realism failure, just the first idea that struck me related to that was a bit derpy. :V

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Seriously?  Bleach is not detergent, you can't wash clotes with just bleach.  This is exactly the kind of suggestion that gets rejected out of hand, not because it would help the player, but because it doesn't actually work like that.  Making various kinds of detergent reasonably common has the same outcome and reflects reality.

Some other containers that could be used as wash basins would be a better small step in the right direction, as would finding other logically valid options for soap.

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Sure? It's a pile of rocks, so I'm not sure how that helps the player.

As for the More Survival Tools example that's just a general minor regret of mine really. It's related to the general annoyance of a LOT of constructions making no sense to require a hammer and screwdriver to take apart though. Unfucking that would be realistic and convenient for the player by ensuring that they can dismantle stuff they shouldn't need those tools for.

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I don't know who said anything about balance, if you're attributing that to me you need to provide a link, because I definitely never said that.  If anything it's the opposite, it's pointless to implement it because it's so incredibly ineffective.
Also, it doesn't really work, as has been pointed out, quite a few guns have interlocks that make this impossible, others have a breech that makes it impossible, and even if it does work it's terribly impractical to reload.
The only compelling reason to even want this feature was if magazines were going to continue to be rare as hell, and the easier solution was to fix magazine spawning, which is what we did.

As for the chambering a round thing, I'd need to find the discussion about that, but I could've sworn that game balance was ONE of the things brought up in it. I do think that the idea still has a niche, but it isn't as essential now that magazines aren't so rare.

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It's funny how people only mention how common things should be when it's something that's really valuable.  Get me some good resources on how common various items should be and I'll happily apply them to te spawn lists, but "I can't find foo so it should be more common" isn't a compelling reason to adjust things, obviously players will keep asking for rare and valuable things to be more common.

Regarding rope, it isn't really valuable. It's just a big pain in the ass to make. If that's value it's fake value. It isn't really used in a ton of recipes or constructions, but when it's NEEDED it becomes annoying to obtain. I think the poster that cited "very common in hardware stores" was mostly just giving that for the sake of contrast with how tedious rope is to make. The idea that, with respect to ropes, how you obtain it's realistic in ONE way but unrealistic in another, and used it as an example of how realism only seems to get priority if it's to the player's detriment.

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I agree, this needs to happen and is just something we haven't gotten around to, but overhauling the range model of the game isn't something I'd characterize as "trivial".

This one I'm afraid you missed the point of. My point there was that shotguns have awful in-game range RELATIVE to pistols. I don't think the range system needs an overhaul just to make shotguns not be melee weapons. :V

Offline ZoneWizard

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #500 on: April 05, 2017, 10:23:49 PM »
Had to chime in. While not wholly about doing laundry...

Having more than 1 option to do a rather common practice seems a tad bit under whelming to put it nicely. 1 bar soap + washboard + **ck ton amount of water = only way to do laundry. Seems a little sparse.

If all we had was a "Pistol" or "Rifle" in the game, it would be incredibly boring and a dead game. Only way to kill a zombie? Got you covered...use a Pistol or Rifle....no other means matters.

Not even asking for anyone to change the laundry thing. Just wanted to point out, that sometimes we just need to have options. That is what most of the realism is to this game.


PS-Animal breeding would be nice. Been awhile since I've come to the forum. We have this yet? Since by time I come back, we may yet have it lol XD
Feel free to message me on this. I'd appreciate it =)

Side note- Since when do shotguns behave worse than pistols? I tango with a gun turret at far as version 5200ish. Just wondering about this topic...I maybe just figure that the lack of proper aiming at range is due to the fact that a shot shell should only be from across a room. To which I can shoot very reasonably, even with a bayonet on the end too =)

But I wouldn't mind better accuracy. Technically, it should be reasonable to shoot 30 yards. I could hit skeet at 150 yards....ok I'm understanding the dilemma as the game stands in this regard >_>
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 10:31:01 PM by ZoneWizard »

Offline GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #501 on: April 06, 2017, 06:12:59 AM »
Options...for laundry
Eeh yeah but 'realism' stuff for things like this get bloaty fast. Weapons at least are integral to combat, a big chunk of gameplay.
Do we really need more than 1 or 2 options for -washing clothes-?
(I mean shoot, is filthiness even still a part of the more recent experimentals? I thought a bunch of it got moved to a mod..)

Offline Litppunk

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #502 on: May 13, 2017, 05:44:15 PM »
Rope is something I can see being one of the first things to get raided from stores. When people think "survival" rope of some kind often comes forefront to the mind, even if they do not have the survival skills or knot tying skills to know any half decent ways to actually put it to use. I can see rope being in many peoples "things to loot" lists. Plus boxing rings mean there is plenty of rope. The same argument (minus boxing rings) can be said about most "rareisher than should be" items.

Though screwdrivers being impossible to self craft without duct tape still bother me even as it makes an infinite amount of sense from a play perspective.
A punk is a smoldering stick used for lighting firework fuses, dynamite and other fused items. This makes it the source of raging fires and destruction, and the ignition of beautiful displays of pyrotechnics and many beneficial flames as well a pranksters tool.
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Offline xironfistx

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #503 on: May 13, 2017, 06:46:15 PM »
you could even manage to make a screwdriver out of a spoon,butter knife or a fort to be honest if you bend them till they break.

Offline Litppunk

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #504 on: May 13, 2017, 07:17:46 PM »
The argument against this is that you wouldn't have the necesary leverage compared to a true screwdriver, although gameplay it's more of a separating low risk - low reward, high risk - high reward play-styles. The screwdriver is used as a pivotal tool allowing for the making of higher tier equipment, and constructions, etc...

All that said, I am not against keeping the screwdriver as is. I just wish there was a more discreet and less gamified "unavailable until you are Lvl:__ looking way that this strikes me as.
A punk is a smoldering stick used for lighting firework fuses, dynamite and other fused items. This makes it the source of raging fires and destruction, and the ignition of beautiful displays of pyrotechnics and many beneficial flames as well a pranksters tool.
hey.... whats that hissing sound.

Offline iceball3

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Re: 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game.
« Reply #505 on: May 15, 2017, 01:44:54 AM »
Consideration about rope, if it hasn't brought up yet, you can salvage ropes from cars pretty easily, last I checked. Unless it got changed, seatbelts dismantled from cars yield a short rope.
You can even smash it out if the underlying frame is almost dead but the seatbelt is in good enough condition.
...using protection and letting a bunch of weak mobs pound you all night long