Author Topic: Changing intelligence to... something more  (Read 4637 times)

Offline BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2016, 08:33:22 PM »
I am apparently one of the few vocal supporters of skill rust. I do agree that it should be a slower process, or tied to season length somehow.


I think Intelligence should be changed to memory, since it always seems weird when a genius character makes a dumb mistake because the player is dumb.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 08:35:31 PM by BorkBorkGoesTheCode »
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Offline Litppunk

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 10:49:00 PM »
I am apparently one of the few vocal supporters of skill rust. I do agree that it should be a slower process, or tied to season length somehow.


I think Intelligence should be changed to memory, since it always seems weird when a genius character makes a dumb mistake because the player is dumb.

I support skill rust. I like the way it creates a play obstacle and soft cap until character is skilled enough to succesfully install basic CBM's
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Offline pisskop

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 11:49:19 PM »
Int could be:

- Controlling focus loss/gain
- Crit % boosting
- Providing NPC interaction buffs
- NOT better mutations, unless that involves gating 'special recipes' that provide this benefit
- Maybe special recipes or shortcuts, QOL stuff
- Overmap site increase
- Skill Rust benefits.  maybe people can finally also play with it on.
- Aiming/Task completion time bonuses
- Decreased skill reqs -> 13 int means 1 less skill point req, 17 -> 2 less skill point reqs, etc.
- Gating professions or scenarios by an int req


Int should be QoL, since int is, irl, a tool of culture and QoL.  Int isnt a requirement, but fills a niche that is useful.  Willpower checks also sound nice.  for stat loss via pain (with high focus, which int would help with)  and perhaps if the supernatural psionics via cultists/mycus ever get expanded upon?


currently int barriers are a joke, with the possible exception of intcap skillrust and endgame books
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 11:56:49 PM by pisskop »

Offline Vastin

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2016, 07:49:26 AM »
I'm with coolthulu that you generally want any permanent stat like int to remain relevant throughout the game, rather than just being a build/dump stat, which is arguably were it is now.

Potential 'permanent' benefits of int:

- reduced pain penalties.
- bonuses to avoid addiction type effects.
- improved rate of morale recovery/loss - morale targets are unchanged, but you might climb faster when low, and possibly drop slower when you're over your target.
- Reduce chances of being stunned or KO'd by attacks.
- Bonuses to some NPC interactions involving fast talking, persuasiveness and the like.
- Improved effect of medical items/drugs.
- Reduced chance of component loss or item damage when crafting/deconstructing, even when training skills past your current level.

So basically Int would become the stat that helps you avoid/mitigate many of the disabling attacks in the game, which is obviously quite valuable in end-game circumstances, by the time most of the learning bonuses have run their course.

The component loss bonus would mainly be a training benefit, but would retain some benefit even at higher levels.

Conversely any of these elements could become penalties at 7 int and lower, which could make it a pretty dangerous dump stat.

I don't have an opinion of its effect on skill rust, as I intend to keep that disabled permanently regardless. I played with it on for a long time, found it obnoxious regardless of the implementation, and have shelved it. ;)

Offline ragamer

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2016, 09:26:57 AM »
Quote
The in-game map items (tourist guide, restaurant guide, etc.) seem to indicate that the player has their own map that they record locations on. The prompt says "You mark down such and so on your map" when you use them.

If you check the repository and its outstanding issues (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/19053)... Dev team is trying to create a "map erasing" mechanic linked to "memory" for a while now. INT is the perfect stat to control the process... So yes, current players seem to have a Map that is "magically" updated with pinpoint accuracy...

...If you put yourself now in the skin of a survivor WITHOUT GPS data... And try to ellaborate and keep accurate long distance navigational data by hand, have you considered?:

- The time needed to simply translate and link different map sources together?

- How can you update your physical map when the source is digital?

- That you spend exactly 0 time into all this activities?


That's why I marked the feature as OPTIONAL... ATM all mapping activities seems to be based on assuming that EVERY SINGLE character comes with somekind of hightech map device able to integrate digital sources, scanning physical maps, with a permanent link to a GPS source and with such processing power were all the activities associated to cartography can be done in just 1 turn.

That's why INT is but the 1st parameter involved into the whole process, you need to:

- Add to any item/event that reveals map an ORIGIN coordinate (The "radius" and info filter is already into the game. Better than a radius, ALL map sources should operate as boxes... Which makes all associated code FAR lighter for the CPU). So later, if a player uses it again it will "detect" the same set of overmap tiles it did generate originally. This can be as manual as to force the player to "reread" his/her map collection each time the overmap tiles dissapear or... Manage it transparently by marking overmap tiles contained into "maps" carried (or readily accessible) by the player as "unforgettable". Notice that most physical map sources come with tile type filters, meaning a "refresh" will only "detect back" certain types of tiles... With a smart setup of physical map filters and a "manual reread" paradigm, players can select which long distance features they want to see always, from the ones that want to forget to simplify their "world maps".

- Create a specific Digital mapping device (An APP for an E-Link Tablet?) able to jack into digital sources that store mapping. Obviously all kind of high-tech gadgets can appear here at diminishing the reliance on human memory but, most of them have a common trait... They relay on a GPS network to synch different sources/scales. Want to keep INT important? Lore should include that GPS satellite networks went nuts and unreliable during the chaos (Or at least the Civilian portion of such GPS networks) so Digital Maps are just a more comfortable to carry/consult version of the physical maps.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 09:39:39 AM by ragamer »

Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2016, 11:56:54 AM »
Dev team is trying to create a "map erasing" mechanic linked to "memory" for a while now.

No, actually we want to add more map memory. Kevin is the only one who wants to add more forgetting and he didn't work on the game for like a year.
But let's not change the topic - this is about uses of intelligence (or general "mind" stat), not specific details about one feature that could get affected by it.

- Reduce chances of being stunned or KO'd by attacks.

This one sounds OK. Having intelligence decrease chances of negative effects procing (stun) and getting applied (grab) could be helpful and not too far-fetched.

Though it would make more sense to also rename it to willpower or something like that.

- Crit % boosting

You mean just chance to crit or crit scaling?
If chance, it would need to replace dexterity (otherwise strength would be the only stat not affecting crit rate).
Scaling could be interesting, though then we'd have 3 skills affecting crits, so dex should still stop affecting crits. Having perception affect crit rate and intelligence affect crit scaling could be a good idea.

Alternatively, intelligence could help with armor piercing.

Quote
Int should be QoL, since int is, irl, a tool of culture and QoL.

If intelligence can't be anything but QoL, then it shouldn't be in the game. Could be replaced with willpower.

A skill boost from intelligence sounds fine, but I think it should be more of a multiplier. Maybe higher base intelligence should raise both the skill cap and the experience gained? For example, the new cap for a skill might be level 15, but it takes the same amount of time to reach as the old level 10.

Experience gained would not help with the biggest problem intelligence has: not being useful after a while. In this case when intelligence boosts (most likely flat) would be countered by quadratically increasing requirements.

Multiplier on "effective skill level" could work, but it would require a whole lot of redesigning in the code. And could possibly be very hard to balance, with strong characters improving dramatically with slight boost, but weak ones not noticing the difference between 8 and 20 intelligence.

Does intelligence have an effect on how well you can treat yourself with first aid? If not, on a high-int character could receive a decent bonus when using healing items.

As mentioned by another person, high-intelligence characters receiving a flat bonus to all skills would be immensely useful.

First aid boost would only really help early on, when you don't have enough of the skill. At the moment first aid is pretty broken and you can heal from the brink of death to full with a stack of bandages, which in turn are very cheap later on, making HP recovery boosts rather unimportant.

Flat boost to skills sounds very hard (if at all possible) to balance. Later on, it would stay useful (good), but early on it would turn the balance upside-down, with lanky, clumsy, four-eyed nerds beating up hulks due to intelligence boosting the skills to mid-range levels. Alternatively, it would be too weak to really matter.

Offline Litppunk

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2016, 04:07:03 PM »
Pretty sure at least something in first aid is boosted by int
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Offline BeerBeer

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2016, 10:19:32 PM »
What if we go the other way? High INT + low skill = more randomness, but still higher learning speed. Have high INT actually affect combat NEGATIVELY for a long time. The rationale could be that high INT perceives more threats, so he hesitates more, and struggles more to cover each potential miniscule danger. Later in the game, with higher combat skill (experience), high INT could actually turn out to be much deadlier with higher combat skills. Low INT could convey that one is just too ignorant or boneheaded to perceive and understand danger.

In a nutshell:
High INT + low combat skill = higher than normal combat penalties (though learns faster)
High INT + high combat skill = higher than normal combat bonuses
Low INT = steadier, more predictable combat, steadier progress, but doesn't end up being as deadly as high INT would

Or we could go like:

High INT + low combat skill = much more fickle combat for longer time, much more unreliable hits, unpredictable hit success rate and damage. Generally more RNG.

Could apply this backwards thinking to other skills as well. I mean, there would have to be a tipping point - a skill level - after which high INT, together with the skill level, turns into a tangible benefit, greater than with average INT or low INT.

Of course all this might be more about personality than INT. You can have high INT but that doesn't dictate whether you're aggressive, decisive, confident, methodical, observant, calm, hesitant, careful, cowardly, etc.
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Offline Rot

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2016, 11:42:47 AM »
What if we go the other way? High INT + low skill = more randomness, but still higher learning speed. Have high INT actually affect combat NEGATIVELY for a long time. The rationale could be that high INT perceives more threats, so he hesitates more, and struggles more to cover each potential miniscule danger. Later in the game, with higher combat skill (experience), high INT could actually turn out to be much deadlier with higher combat skills. Low INT could convey that one is just too ignorant or boneheaded to perceive and understand danger.

In a nutshell:
High INT + low combat skill = higher than normal combat penalties (though learns faster)
High INT + high combat skill = higher than normal combat bonuses
Low INT = steadier, more predictable combat, steadier progress, but doesn't end up being as deadly as high INT would

Or we could go like:

High INT + low combat skill = much more fickle combat for longer time, much more unreliable hits, unpredictable hit success rate and damage. Generally more RNG.

Could apply this backwards thinking to other skills as well. I mean, there would have to be a tipping point - a skill level - after which high INT, together with the skill level, turns into a tangible benefit, greater than with average INT or low INT.

Of course all this might be more about personality than INT. You can have high INT but that doesn't dictate whether you're aggressive, decisive, confident, methodical, observant, calm, hesitant, careful, cowardly, etc.

It looks nice, but I can see this being more of a negative perk that you pick via chargen vs. just having it in without the player's say.

Offline pisskop

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2016, 02:53:05 PM »
id suport int being the cumulative if wisdom, willpower, and learning capacity

Offline munbeam

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2016, 02:54:02 AM »
Personally I favor intelligence offering passive benefits. Skills are an obvious immediate influence related to int that already gives bonuses such as damage and crit. To a point it makes sense that someone highly skilled yet with varied gifts can compete well enough due to the virtue of higher skill already compensating for the complexities related to said skill. It could remain unique by offering numerous small benefits that feed into each other the higher it goes. Something like reading speed getting better each increment but more complicated. Individually it would be small, yet powerful if the player gives effort to take advantage of and maintain it.

Base strength could increases stimulant benefit cap and intelligence increases elated benefit cap. As I understand it, strength already reduces the length of stimulants. Intelligence could do something similar with elated by way of longer morale positives and negatives. These are a nice means to get stats when you need it while not simply having it without effort. The cap manipulation is there to avoid runaway issues post scarcity, and again higher intelligence would make it easier to raise or maintain while offering something the other stats never will. Investment into intelligence would be less painful if you can get the others for long stretches of time as well.

Focus can be a modifier to skill and speed a modifier for crafting if it is not already. Intelligence making elated and morale better gives it an edge for time and resources spent. If it is compounded with smaller benefits from intelligence directly you can have a situation where plain investment is inefficient but appreciated, but more effort applies "exponential" gains. You might want to replace exponential with something more balanced.

Finally intelligence could be used to "get more out of life." Like eating food slower for greater morale benefits should there be an opportunity. Or a small chance to create extras from small crafting exercises and faster crafting on larger ones. Something like a more structured and opportunistic version of luck. It would be nice if intelligence could take advantage of something more cheaply that when added to other persuits due to reduced costs it competes with its peers. Morale gains from books and the limited number that can be read during a period of time exemplifies it. A character at half read speeds can have the same bonus for longer or double the bonus for the same time. Perhaps use morale as something that influences willpower.

Offline ZoneWizard

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2016, 11:31:26 PM »
How about like real life?

2 forms of brain activity to sentient beings: Intellect and Wisdom

Intellect: What you can learn from a book.

Wisdom: Logic ; innate mental abilities and deciding what to do with the current capacity of intellect.

Example-
Reading a book is intellect and how fast you read and absorb the information there in. Wisdom would be recipes scaled to the amount of wisdom and the quality of the creation.

LitPunk asked how to implement this. Well obviously it would be a bit of an overhaul of the item/recipe system as well as touching the first-aid and CBM systems etc. It would be a base faculty like strength, so it would touch a lot.

Idea for items and crafting:
Items would have to have a quality measure. Either written or simplify it to a number from 1-100. This could either be a small change to "Damage" while keeping the exact number hidden unless you have a trait like "Merchants Eye"; Being able to accurately judge the quality of items. Which would be less jarring to the player, keeping the 1-100 quality hidden with the names/bars unless the player has that said trait.

Int. could be for recipes you learn from books and the max amount you could be able to learn in a 24 hour span(seriously, you don't retain everything you read all at once....CBM brain augment?). Wisdom would gauge the percentage to learn a recipe. Wis. would also act as the Quality modifier for many skills. If you have low wisdom. You may fumble a repair. You make a poor quality item.



Small tangent of First-Aid:
The healing system should be overhauled to heal over a faster than normal(for game purposes) time awake and slightly faster while sleeping.

Hate to say it but Unreal World has a really good healing/first aid system. Takes 2 seconds to ask Sami for help on his forum. Seriously he really is pretty open to helping last I knew.



Not sure how well Int. and Wis. could help with every skill to be honest. But it really could have 1 base "Intelligence" and branch as needed per individual skill. Such with Crafting and repairs. Just my 2 cents >_>

Offline Logrin

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2016, 04:42:11 AM »
As a side note before the actual suggestion, I still think...

INT should be MIND
STRENGTH should be BODY
DEX should be REFLEX
PERCEPTION should be AWARENESS

that out of the way INT could provide--in the same way strength provides HP--a pool of resolve or willpower that acts a MENTAL HP. Measuring your soundness of mind, how well you function under stress etc. etc.  So long as this value isn't at ZERO you shake off:

*Nether shenanigans like paralysis, teleportation and the like
*Morale lowering images/events
*That pacification gas from the non-murdery riot bot
etc.

Essentially anything that stems from a state of mind. So no resisting being stunned from a brute or hulk. A blow to the head should be resisted with strength, trust me when I say Mike Tyson will shake off a sucker punch faster than Stephan Hawking.

Offline Valpo

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2016, 04:05:31 PM »
A blow to the head should be resisted with strength, trust me when I say Mike Tyson will shake off a sucker punch faster than Stephan Hawking.

I am not convinced. I think the reason why mike tyson will not go down as fast from a punch is because he knows how to avoid taking dmg to the head. So his dex/reflex/melee exp. If two people take a similar hit and do not mitigate the impact somehow they ll probably be effected equally. Your strength would matter if you somehow block an attack, reducing the damage. AS a game mechanic it might work though if you say that strength = body but then again if you are being that general with your stats then it would make more sense to leave it to the mind as its something you resist directly with what makes up your mind, the brain. Using mind as intelligence willpower and overall integrity and resilience of your brain.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2016, 05:19:25 PM »
Dev team is trying to create a "map erasing" mechanic linked to "memory" for a while now.

No, actually we want to add more map memory. Kevin is the only one who wants to add more forgetting and he didn't work on the game for like a year.
Some minor corrections.
The linked issue was in fact calling for additional map memory, and I was resistant to giving all characters mega-eidetic memory of every map feature and item ever seen.

Your, "like a year" is 6 months, which I can remember since that's how old my son is.

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