Author Topic: Changing intelligence to... something more  (Read 3824 times)

Offline pisskop

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2017, 02:56:04 PM »
Im rather against renaming intellect, unless its going to also change str to 'body'

- body
- dex
- mental
- per

dex and per cover the rapid response nature of their counterparts.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2017, 07:29:34 PM »
Necroing because I still want to implement that. Post 0.D stable, that is.
If you consider the conversation complete, what do you consider "that" to be?  If nothing else, it seems essential to answering the question you're asking now, which is what the name should be.
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Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2017, 09:56:56 PM »
If you consider the conversation complete, what do you consider "that" to be?

I'm pretty certain it should include willpower - resistance to pain, lowered negative morale effects, resistance to mental paralysis (amigara), resistance to addictions and so on.

Actually it could be just willpower, since willpower lets you read boring books too.
The only thing non-willpower element of the "new intelligence" would be hacking, which could be just dropped for pure computer skill. Crafting to a much lesser degree, because pure brain power doesn't help that much with handiwork.

So willpower or resolve would be the closest thing here.

Because it keeps with traditional naming of skills and its descriptive of what the new skill does.

Traditional?
Our other stats have only 1 name at a time.

Wits?

Could work - it would be generic enough to bundle almost all mind-related stuff under it.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2017, 01:08:42 AM »
I'm pretty certain it should include willpower - resistance to pain, lowered negative morale effects, resistance to mental paralysis (amigara), resistance to addictions and so on.

Actually it could be just willpower, since willpower lets you read boring books too.
The only thing non-willpower element of the "new intelligence" would be hacking, which could be just dropped for pure computer skill. Crafting to a much lesser degree, because pure brain power doesn't help that much with handiwork.

So willpower or resolve would be the closest thing here.
It sounds a lot more like an entirely new stat rather than an overhaul of an existing one.

Adding the effets together presents several problems:
Thematically they have little to do with each other.  This will exibit itself both in "why can't I have a smart character with low willpower" or the opposite, and when stat advancement happens, nonsensical effects like reading a lot also increasing willpower.
The combined influeces of the two sets of effects will be extremely wide, either it will be an absolutely must-have stat, or the impact of additional points will be so diffuse as to be meaningless.

The naming issue illustrates this, the effects you're describing are reasonably described as "willpower", or "mental fortitude", but the existing effects are poorly described by either term, and are instead well-described as "intelligence".  In order to cover both use cases, it has to be made extremely general, such as by calling it just "mind", in effect combining "mental agility" with "mental fortitude".

There's also been a lot of feedback that people don't consider Intelligence to be the dump stat that you think it is, and I agree.  While it is likely on the low end of utility, the additions you describe would be closer to doubling it's utility rather than moving it to parity with the other stats, leaving it as the new must-have stat.
There were a number of recommendations around using inteligence as a limit or enhancement on crafting, which is somewhere it thematically belongs, I'd much rather see enhancements in that area than attempting to add enhancements around mental fortitude.
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Online John Candlebury

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2017, 04:26:05 AM »
Because it keeps with traditional naming of skills and its descriptive of what the new skill does.

Traditional?
Our other stats have only 1 name at a time.

Traditional as in it fits in with the classic rpg stats (strenght, constitution, perception, dexterity, intelligence, wisdom, willpower, charisma and luck).

Wisdom are willpower are often merged into one as are strenght and constitution (which we do in CDDA)   

Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2017, 05:58:42 PM »
the existing effects are poorly described by either term, and are instead well-described as "intelligence".

A good third of the intelligence effects (by pure number, not gameplay impact) fit much better under willpower than intelligence:
  • Microsleep frequency when tired
  • Amigara paralysis resistance
  • Focus loss due to ROOTS3 mutation
  • Avoiding scratching from formication
  • Forced sleep duration when mutating

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when stat advancement happens

If it ever does, it will be long after the stat change and by that time it will look a whole lot different.
Not to mention that stat advancement in the "learn by doing" form is a bad idea that WILL result in painful grind if implemented. Our skill system already has all those problems - it only results in actual learning by doing for melee combat skills, while rest is just "learn by grinding".

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While it is likely on the low end of utility, the additions you describe would be closer to doubling it's utility rather than moving it to parity with the other stats, leaving it as the new must-have stat.

The problem with intelligence is that it is just plain horribly designed. It is just quality of life that alleviates the tedium of book reading, but then quickly drops off in all utility.
This kind of design is short-sighted and is a form of balancing by tedium (which in turn is one of the things closest to objectively wrong, right next to bundling adware with an application or randomly scrambling keybinds).
Honestly, DDA would be better off if intelligence wasn't a stat at all. If it was just removed and values were rebalanced around 10 or so. That is because all its utility depends on player not torturing self with the tedium of going low intelligence, which unfortunately is the most proper way to play DDA right now.
There is no way to balance quality of life against mechanical bonuses. Just trying to do so is an error in itself.

Giving "the mind stat" some tangible advantages would not turn it into must-have, just like giving nightvision to perception didn't turn it into must-have.

Intelligence is a bad stat right now and that's not just my opinion - it is a fact.
There are multiple ways to get the benefits of intelligence without picking intelligence at character generation and the benefits are way too few.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2017, 01:31:34 AM »
the existing effects are poorly described by either term, and are instead well-described as "intelligence".

A good third of the intelligence effects (by pure number, not gameplay impact) fit much better under willpower than intelligence:
As you say, by number, not impact.  Move these to willpower and you're done, it doesn't change balance.
Quote
While it is likely on the low end of utility, the additions you describe would be closer to doubling it's utility rather than moving it to parity with the other stats, leaving it as the new must-have stat.

The problem with intelligence is that it is just plain horribly designed.
You're conflating a problem with its solution, regardless of how badly designed intelligence is, shoehorning willpower effects into it is not a valid solution.
Honestly, DDA would be better off if intelligence wasn't a stat at all.
This is a more valid solution (assuming I agree with your premise, which I don't).
Intelligence is a bad stat right now and that's not just my opinion - it is a fact.
If you don't understand how absurd a statement that is, we can't have a discussion, literally everything about game design is opinion based, there is no objective truth.

If you want intelligence to be better, make intelligence better, conflating it with willpower is a non-starter.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
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Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2017, 09:34:50 AM »
If you want intelligence to be better, make intelligence better, conflating it with willpower is a non-starter.

All the ideas to make intelligence useful so far presented are at least one of:
  • Certainly mod only, because they involve psionic powers
  • Likely to be mod only, because it "makes no sense" (as in, is not realistic, for a small subset of realism)
  • Stretching its meaning to the point where willpower, perception or dexterity fits better
  • Involves so much redesigning that you might as well be making a new game
  • Not helpful in making intelligence actually useful, but instead focusing it on making those with low intelligence have to deal with even more tedium

Quote
If you don't understand how absurd a statement that is, we can't have a discussion, literally everything about game design is opinion based, there is no objective truth.

Say, there are two stats (for simplicity - there are 4, but 3 fit in one category).
One stat:
Has lasting effects for the whole game, is hard to buff, provides real effects, can't always be replaced and when it is replaced, it takes away something
And the other stat that:
Just saves time in a game where time is unlimited, is easy to boost, most of the time can be replaced by spending more time on an action

Then saying that the first stat is better is pretty much at the objectivity/subjectivity level of "having more max hp is better than having less max hp".

Sure you can say that everything is subjective - solipsism is technically a valid argument. But that's about it.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2017, 06:06:45 PM »
All the ideas to make intelligence useful so far presented are at least one of:
Hard crafting limits are not covered by your list, neither are adjustments to crafting outcomes, nor a pervasive skill bonus.
Quote
If you don't understand how absurd a statement that is, we can't have a discussion, literally everything about game design is opinion based, there is no objective truth.

Then saying that the first stat is better is pretty much at the objectivity/subjectivity level of "having more max hp is better than having less max hp".
You are taking all your value judgements about game mechanics and your evaluations of the value of game effects as unassailable truths, your example just reinforces that.  Which is precisely why we can't discuss the issue, because I disagree with a number of your views on game design.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
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Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2017, 09:19:51 PM »
Quote
Hard crafting limits are not covered by your list, neither are adjustments to crafting outcomes, nor a pervasive skill bonus.

Hard crafting limits alone aren't enough. They'd need to be hard crafting limits backed up by total absence of the item from the spawns.
And more: those would have to be extensive limits - not just no mutagen, but no plate mail/survivor armor/broadswords or something like that.
If it was just limits on crafting but not spawns, it would be just another convenience, not a lasting advantage.
So not hard crafting limits, but hard existence limits on items. Or at least hard limits on usability of those items.
And even that would be unlikely to be enough, considering that guns and powered armor aren't craftable, so high end gear tends to be all drops.

Crafting outcomes would need to be altered in similarly invasive way: "exceptional broadsword" exists only if player is a 14 intelligence crafter, not 8 intelligence one that lucked out.
Or at the very least quickly drop in quality to player's ability to maintain it.
And even then, it again depends on very high tier items being craftable. Which goes against craft vs scavenge thing.

Skill bonus sounds like one of those "just do x" ideas, but is anything but:
Flat bonus would not be realistic at all (smart people don't swing clubs better) and would compete with dexterity.
Scaling bonus would suck at early levels (kinda acceptable, considering that's where crafting part should happen), then depend on skill caps and good scaling to prevent getting it out of hand. We don't have skill caps for most skills yet.
So we're stuck with a scaling bonus, but not linearly scaling bonus: linear would explode fast and turn the whole thing upside down.
Then there are temporary bonuses to consider.

So maybe not "redesign the whole game" complex, but it's not a fix on its own (unless the bonuses were stronger than bonuses from other stats), is less realistic than many ideas rejected for being unrealistic and is actually pretty complex to design.



tl;dr Craftable laser guns/power armors/monoatom swords/fusion reactors that degrade if used without high intelligence and can't be repaired without said high intelligence could save intelligence

Quote
You are taking all your value judgements about game mechanics and your evaluations of the value of game effects as unassailable truths

Ideas such as "annoying player is always bad", "burdening player with needless keypresses is always bad", "scrambling the UI and hoping the player will be lazy enough to be confused by that is a terrible idea" - yeah, those are unassailable truths. Intentionally introducing extra menuing or realtime lag (the latter actually happened in Wayward roguelike) to discourage using the best option is unthinkable and I would instantly think less of anyone who proposed that, without waiting for them to excuse themselves - the only viable excuse here would be "just joking".
In other cases, where a sane person could be expected to disagree, where I could possibly think "well, I missed that, my bad" or "that sounds like a good idea at first, but here is why I have to disagree" - in those cases I wait to be proven wrong.

If there is a case of intelligence being better than other stats in a way that doesn't depend on book grind (which is a giant flaw and becomes obsolete quickly) and doesn't become worthless by midgame, I'm still waiting to hear it.
Something like:
  • "A 10 skill character will get x damage per 100 moves with niten+diamond katana, but y (where y>x) with dragon style if he puts 4 points to intelligence instead of perception"
  • "By getting 12 intelligence, you can achieve x% failure rate for common bionic early_game_bionic, which will carry you until you gain 5 unarmed and then zui quan will benefit you more than dexterity"
Except actually happening.

I'm specifically looking for arguments that aren't in the form of:
  • "If I don't do the math on the whole thing and just go with what feels right, intelligence is not worse than other stats."
  • "I enjoy suffering so I keep skill rust on and my legs in a nest of angry hornets. It's a bit too painful for me because I'm not THAT much of a masochist, so I keep my intelligence high to slow down the rust."
  • "I roleplay my dumb characters in a way that makes them dumb."
  • "I do not use all tools at my disposal but instead choose to limit myself with arbitrary rules that can't be translated into game mechanics."

Offline ZoneWizard

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2017, 10:19:52 PM »
How is it in game that intelligence is not used more?

Crafting should result in learning;
-recipes, how fast to learn them, how many in one sitting
-a modifier of relative quality of the item in question
-diplomacy...(subtext humor?), but seriously. Trading and social interactions with NPCs
-initial recipes at character start per skill and how high the Int. level is
-first aid modifier in practice of chance to heal "x" damage (first-aid and waking/non-sleep healing needs an overhaul altogether....but as it stands, damage healed should be ok)
-bionic implant buff due to inherently being able to "figure stuff out" better than an idiot with low Int.
-mods, because I cannot think of every small nuance of how to use it

For the most part, it has a proper usage in the game apart from adding it into willpower or whatever else. It would just trade the short comings of what we have now for new ones and be less(irony) intelligently justified as Kevin mentions. Not trying to sound like a dick here, but I really have NO idea wth Cool is talking about at this point -_-

Shoehorning Int. into another skill is folly at best when considering the restructure needed and how illogical it would be in regard to explaining some aspect of the game.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 10:26:42 PM by ZoneWizard »

Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2017, 10:04:45 AM »
How is it in game that intelligence is not used more?

Because all the suggestions are either extending the existing problems, not solving much, or just "just do it right xD just fix the problems xD" and not actual ideas.
Or are unrealistic to the point where they're mod-only stuff, at least in the versions where they actually fix problems and aren't just for show.

Quote
It would just trade the short comings of what we have now for new ones and be less(irony) intelligently justified as Kevin mentions.

I explained it multiple times over and over, but it looks like I need to insult you personally just so that you read what I write.

Let me break it down for you so that you don't need to think:
  • All stats except intelligence are always useful
  • Benefits of intelligence that are in the game and that you listed quickly become obsolete
  • Crafting mutagen/sword/gun a day or two earlier is not a good advantage when you have all year to craft
  • Healing more is not a good advantage when you can just use more healing items, which you can mass craft pretty quickly
  • Adding benefits that do not become obsolete so fast, such as pain resistance, crit chance boost, ability to operate top tier equipment you couldn't ever operate with moderate int etc. is NOT like any of the above, because it is valuable always, not just early on

I only repeated the arguments here. Didn't really add anything new. So you either have problems reading or didn't bother to read (or both).

Offline ZoneWizard

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2017, 06:59:38 PM »
Didn't say "just fix it". Also, the assumption our "extending problems" is a problem at all, your opinion =/

Asking for the synopsis to your conjecture is not insulting my intelligence. I just do not live on the forum. So, thank you.

Having more time to think, I still do not understand your end goal. As far as I can tell it still just trades off one set of problems for another without any advantage to making the game better.

I'd also like to note that never having had a "awake" healing system is and has always been incredibly silly for the excuse of healing items. Healing only during sleep is not in the least bit helpful when you have 2 broken bones or more. The "healing items" being prevalent is complete crap when you break bones. Especially when you break them again from ANY damage and must start the process of healing all over again. This not only takes forever because you cannot always sleep. But it also means you have to find enough food and water to not die during the process BECAUSE you cannot be hurt even by accident.....it is currently a sh!t system to not be able to heal while awake for the bone reason alone. It simply ruins any desire to continue when you start out.

One more caveat to mention. I have a fair amount of healing items even during the beginning. But I'm still finding such items to be some what in low quantities. My point is, that not everyone plays with the intent of starting a all knowing how to survive game at full throttle. I tend to start pretty bad off and find that the game can usually kill me even on a good start within 4 days. I mention this because I think you, knowing the find details of the game; play with all this knowledge. So you fast track it. Most of the noobs and casual players just don't do this and we are finding what you say a little....well, we just do not see your point here because the game works well with Int. as is =/

Sorry mate, just not understanding where you are coming from.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 12:39:38 AM by ZoneWizard »

Offline Litppunk

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2017, 06:48:02 PM »
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Offline Neonwarrior

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Re: Changing intelligence to... something more
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2017, 07:16:49 AM »
It seems the devs can't come to an agreement on what exactly intelligence should affect. This is rather ironic. I like how intelligence affects the game right now, but I agree it's a weak stat; here's my thoughts.

First off, Intelligence and Willpower really are two separate things. You can be strong and stupid yet have amazing Willpower (think of Goku). Or you can be smarter than Einstein and break down crying when you hit your shin on the coffee table. It doesn't really make sense to combine them. I think the effects of having a high Willpower should either be added to Strength, or a new Willpower/Endurance stat created that does this. It makes sense for it to be Strength, too, since being stronger and more muscular tends to reduce damage (represented already with higher health).

Now, to make Intelligence more powerful than it already is (which isn't very), and to make it a stat worth investing in over the others, I suggest that what Intelligence should affect be expanded upon. I'm imagining that a high Intelligence character would be weak in the early game, then strong in the late game. At first you use your Strength and Perception to survive—but once you're already holed up in a reinforced base and you've already collected weapons that are so powerful you don't even need Strength and Perception anymore, this is where Intelligence should shine. It's not simply a quality of life enhancer, but something that opens up new avenues of play.

Logrin earlier suggested that Intelligence should be important for faction mechanics and diplomacy. I agree with this, as it takes an Intelligent person to organize an entire group of people. Intelligence should have major influences on affecting how your character acts as a leader, expanding your dialogue choices similar to Fallout. Logrin also suggested that Intelligence allows you to tag a skill for contemplation, increasing its gain; while I agree Intelligence should provide a boost to skills, I don't know if it makes any sense to have this feature since you as the player are already aiming to increase certain skills by doing their associated actions. Might be worth adding, though.

If ever there is a cap added to how high a skill can get, Intelligence should raise this cap. Especially for the skills like Electronics, First Aid, and Computer, which are associated with Intelligence—I don't think a character with an Intelligence of 4 should be able to raise their Computer skill to 10 and become a black hat master hacker. If you aim to have your character become a Bionic God, I think they should HAVE to be Intelligent, not just skilled at electronics and first aid. So either that avenue of play is locked to a low-Int character, or they can have an NPC who IS Intelligent install the bionics for you. Maybe a machine could install them.

Speaking of electronics and first aid, maybe someone with high Intelligence should be able to do extra with these skills? Maybe a character with high Intelligence can extract CBMs from corpses earlier, or they can extract more rare components when disassembling electronic items. A high Intelligence character might be able to salvage part of the first aid kit or bandages when using them, doing more with less. All of this could be represented by having a higher effective stat value for the Intelligence skills.

Other than that, Intelligence should just affect many smaller actions in the game. Crafting should be faster, learning faster, get more morale out of books, less failure chance at many actions, and use the correct combat skill in battle (similar to how generals with higher skill in a Paradox game like Hearts of Iron 4 or Crusader Kings 2 will use the correct tactic in battle more often).