Author Topic: Realistic maps  (Read 1482 times)

Offline Coolthulhu

  • Contributor
  • Survivor
  • ****
  • Posts: 3694
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2017, 03:24:37 PM »
Again, what's the difficulty?

Figuring out what should the maps show to be "realistic".
So far it looks like you're trying to make the map look more real-like rather than making them show something objective, measurable and real.

Look at the ideas in the thread: they all are a variant of "I guess maps would look more realistic if they showed x". Not one of them is an implementable idea such as "Add a map display that colors each map tile according to density of vegetation in the tile, with vegetation levels being based on tile type (road/river, field, forest/swamp, thick forest)".

Offline ribblle

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2017, 04:13:04 PM »
Not one of them is an implementable idea

  • Start with a road map in your inventory, which if destroyed disables your map
  • Reveal the entire region, excluding shops.

On reflection, the second idea is somewhat flawed. Your average road map wouldn't include the pedestrian areas in cities, so any lane which isn't big enough for vehicles should be greyed out.

As for your other point;

idea such as "Add a map display that colors each map tile according to density of vegetation in the tile, with vegetation levels being based on tile type (road/river, field, forest/swamp, thick forest)".

Would a road map actually provide this kind of information? I'm looking at this strictly from a simulationist point of view, which is why i'm disregarding quality of life stuff.

Offline mlangsdorf

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2017, 02:26:24 AM »
There are several different types of maps already in the game, from survivor maps that list grocery stores and gun shops to tourist maps that have museums and restaurants.

It's a couple of minutes work to add items to the starting profession.

So I guess my question for ribblle is would starting with a tourist map in your inventory as the default survivor be a sufficient solution for you? Or having one spawn in every evacuation center which is more complicated but not impossible.

Offline deoxy

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1416
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2017, 03:19:06 AM »
The basic problem is that people have a very hard-to-model knowledge of their community.

A delivery driver (pizza, or whatever) would likely have a VERY thorough knowledge of the area, basically, the whole thing mapped out, just in their head.

The prepper would likely have something similar, but on paper.

The average joe would likely know where a certain number of shops are (the places they shop - how do we model that?!?), the immediate street layout and buildings (even smaller than the current default starting area), and the "major" streets for a good ways beyond that (what makes a street "major" in this game?  nothing obvious...), along with a few random freebies that they just happen to remember (had a friend who worked there, had a funny story there one time, etc).

Many would know where the nearest hospital or walk-in clinic would be.  Almost everyone would know of at least one grocery store (not necessarily the nearest).

How about non-city area?  Well, for most people these days, if they aren't a farmer, rancher, or hunter, well... uh.  This is a foresty type area?

The things one would care about in a zombie apocalypse are, for most people, a very different set of things than what they care about in day-to-day life.  How to model that is difficult and open to LOTS of interpretation.  The current setup works well enough for most types of start, I think - certain professions should probably start with a larger and fuller map and/or one (or more) of the map items (probably used on the starting location, actually, whether they have the item in inventory or not), but for the rest, something that averages out about like it does is decent.

Unless you have a more specific suggestion than "make it better"?  "Reveal the map" is available through the debug menu - feel free to use it!

(I do think that the phone book should randomly reveal 1-3 building-type tiles (not parks, parking lots, fields, forests, etc) within a certain distance that are adjacent to a road you have already revealed - that would give a reason to actually READ the silly things.)
This is the text that goes under the post, and there ^ is the post, so this is where it goes.

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5394
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2017, 05:14:28 AM »
Very well put, thank you.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline ribblle

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2017, 08:41:30 PM »
AH! So it's assumed we start near our community? I always assumed we'd been bused off to a evac centre in the middle of nowhere.

There are several different types of maps already in the game, from survivor maps that list grocery stores and gun shops to tourist maps that have museums and restaurants.

It's a couple of minutes work to add items to the starting profession.

So I guess my question for ribblle is would starting with a tourist map in your inventory as the default survivor be a sufficient solution for you? Or having one spawn in every evacuation center which is more complicated but not impossible.

I think the road map is the biggy. Say what you will about the town, but everyone knows what their nearest city is and how to get there.

Once we get a few more starting scenarios, then it might be time to add specific maps for each profession.

Offline deoxy

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1416
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2017, 03:14:58 PM »
I think the road map is the biggy. Say what you will about the town, but everyone knows what their nearest city is and how to get there.

Once we get a few more starting scenarios, then it might be time to add specific maps for each profession.

The problem is that people don't generally know all (or even a large portion of) the roads - they know the "major" roads.  Which roads are those?

If you're not a delivery driver (pizza, UPS, etc), the odds that you have map-like knowledge of the residential areas (as only one example) of your city approximate zero quite well.
This is the text that goes under the post, and there ^ is the post, so this is where it goes.

Offline ribblle

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2017, 07:25:31 PM »
We're talking about an actual, physical road map in your inventory.

Offline deoxy

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1416
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2017, 12:18:44 AM »
We're talking about an actual, physical road map in your inventory.

Well, a few people would have one of those... and most people wouldn't.  Especially today, VERY few people are going to have a paper map - they're going to have an app on their phone, and when the internet connection is gone (or their phone charge is gone, if they have an offline app), well...

If you think everyone should magically have one, feel free to debug one for yourself at the beginning of every game.
This is the text that goes under the post, and there ^ is the post, so this is where it goes.

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5394
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2017, 12:45:26 AM »
We're talking about an actual, physical road map in your inventory.
No, you're not.
Say what you will about the town, but everyone knows what their nearest city is and how to get there.
This has been the problem with this whole thread, you keep insisting that this is an easy problem to deal with, and it isn't.  Debug yourself some maps or add them to your favored professions, but we aren't issuing maps to every survivor.

If someone comes up with a good system for handling player geographical knowledge from before the cataclysm, we can add it, but nothing in this thread has even made a start at outlining how that would work.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline Grandpuh Ty

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 170
  • Lowly Cowherd
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2017, 01:27:18 AM »
I can't suggest anything code-wise but, how does removing the initial block of revealed area and replacing it with roads(like a road map) and some randomly assigned "known" buildings along those roads sound? So kind of like having a character read a roadmap and a Point of Interest map at the same time, but what's "revealed" is randomly selected buildings instead of pre-determined restaurants/hospitals/etc.

I'm not suggesting giving players maps at the beginning of the game, just changing the initial known area to reflect a character's usual route or routine(which is really just picking random coordinates for buildings).

Offline deoxy

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1416
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2017, 03:14:36 AM »
I can't suggest anything code-wise but, how does removing the initial block of revealed area and replacing it with roads(like a road map) and some randomly assigned "known" buildings along those roads sound? So kind of like having a character read a roadmap and a Point of Interest map at the same time, but what's "revealed" is randomly selected buildings instead of pre-determined restaurants/hospitals/etc.

I'm not suggesting giving players maps at the beginning of the game, just changing the initial known area to reflect a character's usual route or routine(which is really just picking random coordinates for buildings).

And everything directly adjacent to those squares, but yeah, something like that would at least be a start - it's the most (only?!?) concrete suggestion given so far.
This is the text that goes under the post, and there ^ is the post, so this is where it goes.

Offline ribblle

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2017, 05:47:58 AM »
Yeah Grandpuh, that works for survivors in their own town.

Say what you will about the town, but everyone knows what their nearest city is and how to get there.
This has been the problem with this whole thread, you keep insisting that this is an easy problem to deal with, and it isn't.  Debug yourself some maps or add them to your favored professions, but we aren't issuing maps to every survivor.

If someone comes up with a good system for handling player geographical knowledge from before the cataclysm, we can add it, but nothing in this thread has even made a start at outlining how that would work.

Kevin, I'm not talking about the future, where we will presumably have a myriad set of starting scenarios and all kinds of map knowlege permutations for each profession. Right now, the default start, as i understand it, is at a evac center in your local town. As far as i'm concerned we should flesh that out (which is a easy fix) before we get to the chewy stuff like making it flexible for a variety of starts.

In that specific setting, it makes perfect sense for the survivor to have a rough idea of the neighbouring towns and major cities. More to the point, it makes perfect sense for a evac center to have a couple of maps.

Offline Coolthulhu

  • Contributor
  • Survivor
  • ****
  • Posts: 3694
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2017, 06:44:49 AM »
In that specific setting, it makes perfect sense for the survivor to have a rough idea of the neighbouring towns and major cities.

What is "rough idea of the neighbouring towns and major cities" exactly?
In the purely game terms, I mean.

Offline kolsurma

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic maps
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2017, 07:17:07 AM »
Not one of them is an implementable idea such as "Add a map display that colors each map tile according to density of vegetation in the tile, with vegetation levels being based on tile type (road/river, field, forest/swamp, thick forest)".

That'd be really neat, could the debug weather map be re-purposed to do that?
Maybe a building density map too, although I guess the current map is pretty much that already. A Zombi density one for the areas you've run through would be neat though.

Each cell could display the average X of the 9(27?) surrounding cells, that way it'd be a slightly more non-linear progression of nothing, nothing, TREES EVERYWHERE, nothing, SWAMP.