Author Topic: Subways and Sewers  (Read 1049 times)

Offline pisskop

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Subways and Sewers
« on: March 08, 2017, 03:05:58 PM »
Do you use them?
How?

Have you ever tried to survive in them?
Have you ever raiding inter-city with them?
Have you ever made your home in them?
Why isnt there a 'teenage mutant ninja turtles' meme in the game yet?
  Dont answer that, Ill fix that.
What functionality do they provide to you?
Did you know you can find randomly spawned stuff down there, especially with PKs_Rebalancing?
What can we do to the (reasonably) to make them better?

Offline mlangsdorf

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2017, 04:00:06 PM »
I don't use sewers or subways.

They're too hard to move around in. You can't easily take a cart into them (yes, you can build a folding cart but it's not easy to transfer a lot of stuff that way) and you'd need to build an entire vehicle underground before it would be fast to move through them to raid distant cities.

Basically, in my experience, they're a big hassle for no benefit.

Offline §k

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2017, 04:30:58 PM »
I rode bike in sewer. The wheels createde a trail of land.

Once I found a line of lava in subway. A sewer ran in parallel with the subway. There were corriders connecting them, with metal door on each end. It was a very good place to live.

Once I tunneled through rock between subway, cathedral basement,  and a house basement. Zombies ventured into the underground labyrinth and lost their way in darkness, one by one pierced by a silent spear.

Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2017, 04:55:53 PM »
Subways are supremely boring because they have no features in them. We'd need someone to design a subway station mapgen type for them not to suck.
I'm not sure if it's doable with current mapgen. If not, someone would need to chalk up some simple example of how should it look like from the json side so that I could design the interface.

As for sewers: they're claustrophobic and boring. The only real way to make them better would be to have something spawn by them.
Sewer specials? I think it's doable, so if someone offered to design the features for it, I could implement the interface to plug them in.

We need sewer gators in core. You could mainline them from PK. Would probably need some minor adjustments, but I wouldn't expect them to be so off the core difficulty that they'd need a redesign/overhaul.

Offline Azrad

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2017, 05:17:27 PM »
Sewer gators would be neat. Maybe a nest of them that can spawn in sewers, with eggs to steal.
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Offline pisskop

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2017, 05:24:58 PM »
Sewer gators would be neat. Maybe a nest of them that can spawn in sewers, with eggs to steal.
I have gators.  no eggs.  Mostly due to concerns about overmap special spawning limits.

Offline pisskop

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2017, 05:27:13 PM »
We need sewer gators in core. You could mainline them from PK. Would probably need some minor adjustments, but I wouldn't expect them to be so off the core difficulty that they'd need a redesign/overhaul.
The thing about any of my own additions is that I can always override anything I don't explicitly like.  So thats relatively moot.  Alot of it is misunderstanding the mechanics, such as the case with how bite worked.

I always had the impression that bite worked by dealing the base critter damage, for instance.

Offline pisskop

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2017, 05:38:36 PM »
JUVENILE TWISTED TORTOISE MEN

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

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Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2017, 05:47:10 PM »
I always had the impression that bite worked by dealing the base critter damage, for instance.

This wasn't all that well communicated, but I'd expect it to be more obvious from the results. I didn't see much of your mod, but I'd expect it to have tons of high-coverage armor with armor values above 8.
It's partly a problem of hardcoded defaults: they are not too visible on the outside. Inherited jsons are more readable, but they weren't available when I defined bite first so I needed some defaults that make sense.

Most of the stuff is rather well readable from C++ side. You only really need to localize the file where things are defined, where they are loaded and where they are used. For many attacks/functions/actors, it's just 2 files - one with definitions, other with load and use.
If the defaults are meaningful (ie. not 0, not -1, not "null", not empty), they most likely are used as-is and not acquired from the monster/item that uses them.

Quote
JUVENILE TWISTED TORTOISE MEN

You should define them using the copy-from, like hacks in data/json/monsters/drones.json. That way you'd avoid repeating most of the common data a lot.

Offline Azrad

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2017, 06:08:53 PM »
Anyway, I always wanted to generate a world where it's basically just a massive city, and I'd have the survivor live at the subway during the day and come out at night to scavenge for stuff. 'course, I keep saying that, but always got distracted to actually try.
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Offline pisskop

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2017, 06:12:02 PM »
The fish mutation line could be useful for a run like that.

Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 06:25:40 PM »
Current incarnation wouldn't, because player can't swim in sewage.
At the moment fish is just a set of good mutations (was horrible, but I buffed it) with a very vague deep one theme.

Offline CK_Kirbi

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2017, 02:44:19 AM »
I tend to use the subways in high horde density cities in order to escape groups baring down on my position or to slip by dangerous areas that the subway lines run beneath. I've also considered stacking a whole bunch of heavy, long burning materials into a subway line and light it on fire to see if if collapses the areas above it.

Offline John Candlebury

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2017, 04:29:03 AM »
Used to use them for the first night raids when playing 10+ city sizes. But now that they are choked to the brim with sewehanas the sewers are more dangerous than the surface during the early game. I still  use them to hide from hordes occasionally.

I wouldn't know what to do to make them more interesting. Maybe add underground public infrastructure, say power substations, water pumps and service tunnels running parallel to the sewers and subway

Offline Dec

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Re: Subways and Sewers
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 05:23:56 AM »
I think things like underground cult hideouts in subway tunnels and drug labs hidden in sewers could make them somewhat more interesting. Weird little flavor locations, y'know? Loot, a fight or two, stuff like that. Like trekking through the woods to find a cabin or LMOE shelter.

Personally, I head down into them once in a while to hunt rats and sewer snakes. If I'm playing a cannibal character and am reasonably equipped, I go ahead and hunt a few mutants for dinner and skin too.
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