Author Topic: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod  (Read 2143 times)

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5588
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2017, 09:01:31 PM »
A section in @ for various "hidden" stats  (minor stat effects tab?) where vague character feelings could be a useful tool while keeping it from being OP..... might be a good solution.
Numbness is a good candidate for this, and would give feedback about the gradual nature of painkillers.
would make keeping track of your 'vague hidden health' level and other stats easier, without cluttering the 'major' stat effects section.
The hidden health stat is hidden on purpose, not because were short of room on the menu.

Waiting for medicine to take effect might be common sense in real life, but is rarely a factor in video game logic. Of course it is right at home in a game as detailed as CDDA, but the problem is that the rest of the game does not "train" the player to expect this, and often even expresses the opposite impression that medicines here work just like regular video game logic.
We did have some concern that people wouldn't be familiar with it, which is why installation attempts warn you about the delay when suggesting you take more painkiller.  It seems that the reminder that the delay exists was insufficient for some people though.
I see that there's a failure message that reminds the player of waiting. How about moving the reminder to the Y/N prompt before installation, especially when or after the CBM installation process is being fleshed out?
The warning is displayed when you attempt to install a CBM, it cancels the attempt, but doesn't use any resources. In other words, it comes before the Y/N prompt.

Looking at the feedback, there's definitely an issue with the interface for this new feature, it works as intended if you know about some key mechanics, like delay time for painkiller effect, and painkiller OF.  If you aren't aware of these it's dangerous to use.

Some of the options for addressing this:
1. Be specific about how long painkillers can take to reach full effect, i.e. "painkillers can take up to an hour to reach full effect".  This is the most minimal fix and targets the specific misunderstanding that leads to player death, that waiting 5-10 minutes is sufficient for painkillers to kick in fully.
2. Display feedback about "numbness level" in addition to pain level somewhere. This attempts to make the delay mechanic more apparent, more directly, but seems fragile for this particular issue, because it's one more piece of interface you need to understand in order for it to work. It's good to have information anyway, so it might be worth doing independent of this issue.
3. Display onset times in painkiller item descriptions, and possibly in messages when taking them.  This is another general solution that has some risk of not being noticed in this particular case. This one is also worthwhile independent of CBM installation.
4. Add a craftable "surgery prep kit" that has the right amount of painkiller in it to get an average person ready for surgery.  This gives people a safe option for installations, but isn't a one size fits all solution.
5. Make the "you need painkillers" prompt lead to a menu for selecting painkillers to take, the minimal version would just let you select painkillers and it would take them on a schedule to determine the necessary dosage for your character. This is the most radical change, and would more or less eliminate the risk of taking the painkillers for this purpose. It's also a bit complicated to implement.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline Litppunk

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4358
  • Laughing at death: the answer to impossible
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2017, 09:14:40 PM »
Quote
Quote
would make keeping track of your 'vague hidden health' level and other stats easier, without cluttering the 'major' stat effects section.
The hidden health stat is hidden on purpose, not because were short of room on the menu.

I did not mean to fully reveal it, only give it a place to have the latest wake-up message in regards to it. Something like: Alertness comes to you easier these mornings. etc...

Nothing that tells the player anything they shouldn't already know. But useful for play-throughs that last long enough to get broken up by real-life enough, or for long enough to cause save-point disorientation.

Maybe keep it even more vague then the wakeup messages, without the self aware perk.
Feeds both of grandpas wolves, and but doesn't let them fight; Then saves the car full of cash sells it and starts an orphanage, anti-railroad-tying shenanigans-organization and invests.

Offline Mantar

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 120
  • NOMAD
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2017, 12:08:09 AM »
Painkillers really ought to have a "recommended safe dosage" on their label. IE in the description.

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5588
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2017, 01:57:21 AM »
I did not mean to fully reveal it, only give it a place to have the latest wake-up message in regards to it. Something like: Alertness comes to you easier these mornings. etc...
Oh right, that is a good idea.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline akhier the dragon hearted

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2017, 07:18:45 PM »
Just thought of something in regard to this. Knowing the dosage requirements for things like painkillers are generally in the domain of being a doctor. Along with that a lot of drugs you would find aren't going to have a "don't take this much" label on them, especially if it was a homemade drug. Instead of putting this info in the description, what if you go with an options like you do when waiting? Way back when I suggested that you should be able to wait for things like the sunrise. Now I am suggestion that when taking medicine you get an option menu with things like "minor pain", "moderate pain", and "major pain" and the higher your first aid skill is (and thus the more you know about medicine) the more specific the options get (like how having a watch lets you be more specific on how long you wait) up to being told how much pain it will relieve and what effects it will have. In fact lets add more to the wait options (this will actually fix the problem of not knowing when the drugs kicked in) and include the ability to wait till the drugs you have taken are fully in effect or fully out of their system, and though it might clutter the wait screen maybe have the  option for each specific drug.

Offline Tamior

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2017, 07:31:58 PM »
Since we are on the subject of CBM's, might as well ask the following.

What would be more practical way to implement tool, time and consumables requirements for CBM installation:
1) Keep installation as a "use-action" of whatever bionic component.
2) Change installation into a crafting recipe that produces a pseudo-item that is immediately auto-activated to perform the actual installation.

I mean, is it even possible to code an item with a "use-action" that checks for tools and consumables, then keeps the character "busy" for a few hours, then uses the consumables, then performs the "success-check" and produces the resulting effect? All without glaring problems with implementation?

Or would it be more practical to use the existing crafting system to handle the tool, time and consumables requirements parts and make it produce a pseudo-item that is imminently applied and performs an installation check the same way CBM's are currently installed?


« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 08:23:41 PM by Tamior »

Offline Arkenstone

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 99
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2017, 09:10:39 PM »
One would think with a high enough first aid/medical skill, the character should be aware that he or she is about to do something dangerous. If nothing else, then perhaps a medical book that is focused on painkilling to assist?

Offline Litppunk

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4358
  • Laughing at death: the answer to impossible
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2017, 09:13:26 PM »
I think the numbness and other general mild info should be a good first step. It can always be pushed further if it still doesn't feel like enough.
Feeds both of grandpas wolves, and but doesn't let them fight; Then saves the car full of cash sells it and starts an orphanage, anti-railroad-tying shenanigans-organization and invests.

Offline Arkenstone

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 99
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2017, 10:21:30 PM »
I should add that I've been playing the game for years and I never fully understood how medicine worked until I looked into the code. The game is extremely unintuitive on this; as Alec mentioned, most things in the game act immediately so the notion of "pre-gaming" for combat doesn't even occur to me. I mean, my buffs will just wear off within moments, no?

Not to mention, IRL, for example, I do take asprin if I'm in pain and only if I'm already hurting. I used to take painkillers for workouts, and it never occurred to me to take it before; only afterward, and if I was hurting exceptionally so.

More clarity would help greatly.