Author Topic: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod  (Read 1909 times)

Offline Azrad

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2622
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2017, 03:49:00 PM »
Regarding "new" CBMs with install kits, how about make them like MREs? Disassemble to get the bionic, and the needed amount of painkiller/anesthetic and whatever else that might be needed. Or somesuch.
Strawberry Surprise: it's a meal, drink, morale booster, painkiller, ethanol burner fuel, and coping mechanism in one gulp!

Offline Logistic Tangent

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2017, 06:39:19 PM »
While I am not an expert, here is my idea / suggestion.

As technology is always improving why not have varying degrees of cbm's. The better the grade the less of a pain penalty You suffer after the implantation.

The lab type cbm's might be "experimental" they could have a moderate pain penalty for the "uncommon" type And the "common" ones could have no penalty.

Normal cbm's might have a average to low penalty these would be the ones you could buy off the rack with enough money before the cataclysm.

Low quality ones would be the ones you dig out of the zombies. High pain penalty and might require additional tools.

This is just my opinion but I think it would be a reasonable middle ground between the no painkillers group and my understanding of what Kevin Granade wants as the developer.

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5500
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2017, 07:10:35 PM »
Had a character that looted a lab, got plenty of morphine and some CBMs so I decided to use it.

Took a shot, waited 5 minutes, checked it asked for more, repeat operation 3 more times, managed to install CBM, half an hour later the character was dead.
Indeed, this will kill you, 4 doses of morphine will take you over the limit.

Follow up, did you read the messages when you were doing this, or just reflexively clear them?  When I followed your directions, I did, "apply morphine, wait 5 min, check CBM install" three times, the third time I noticed the message changed to "You aren't quite numb enough" instead of "You need to be a lot more numb", so my inclination was to wait longer to be safe, but I was mechanically following your directions, so ignored this concern, which led to the outcome you predicted.  I tried again with just one more 5 minute wait once the feedback changed to "You aren't quite numb enough", and survived.

I was wondering if the difference between "enough to install" and "enough to kill you" was really just one ampule of morphine, so I checked by waiting longer, it turns out two ampules is sufficient if you wait much longer for it to take effect.  Perhaps we can have some better feedback about this, but frankly, it is working as intended.  If you treat morphine with the respect it deserves, you'll be fine.
If that was the intention, adding realism. Why not add proper local anesthetic? Why not add proper surgical tools? Why not even add hospital/lab surgery robots/NPCs?
And in general why not first take a look at CBMs and think about all the possible ways of making it more realistic, and how those changes will affect the gameplay?
You're asking a lot of leading questions here that assume what the "correct" answer is and pretty much assert that the contributors to this issue didn't put enough thought into it, that's downright rude.
Also why are we now fleshing out CBMs from realism and resource consumption points of view? I thought we were in a feature freeze.
Check the status thread, if it doesn't say we're in feature freeze, we're not, that's the reason it's there.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline Fris0uman

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2017, 07:50:59 PM »
What I get from this discussion so far is that the painkiller mechanic would be an ok one with more feedback to the player.

One of the problem with painkillers seems to be that it does a lot of hidden stuff that can lead you to accidentaly OD, and you don't really learn how those hidden stuff work through a game because you never have to use painkiller with no pain. Usually you're in pain, you take a pill and wait for the pain to go down , you have an indication of the effect via the pain meter and a rough idea of the painkiller strength from description/real life.

But with the cbm you're not in pain so the only way to follow the effect of the pill is to blindy wait and check the cbm installation prompt from time to time, that seems to be a bit annoying and confusing because you have no idea how long to wait or how much is too much.

So the game could give you a "numbness meter" that could give you an idea of the progress of the pill effect, and/or  the cbm installation prompt could be more precise about how much painkiller/numbness you need to install. Since IRL it's not obvious either to know these things the amount of info you get could depend of your level in first aid, if you're a surgeon you get very accurate info, if you have no skill you just know that you're numb and how painfull the installation looks.


The fact that doing self surgery on your eyes while high on codeine is not very reallistic is probably another problem that will get solved progressively by the addition of cbm installation kit, robot surgeon, NPC surgeon etc

Offline Litppunk

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4140
  • Laughing at death: the answer to impossible
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2017, 08:32:03 PM »
A section in @ for various "hidden" stats  (minor stat effects tab?) where vague character feelings could be a useful tool while keeping it from being OP..... might be a good solution.

Messages in the message log are often easy to miss especially for noobs who should realize that guzzling meds effects your character, but frequently assume that as a game there will be no cumulative drawbacks or penalties especially long term.

would make keeping track of your 'vague hidden health' level and other stats easier, without cluttering the 'major' stat effects section.
Feeds both of grandpas wolves, and but doesn't let them fight; Then saves the car full of cash sells it and starts an orphanage, anti-railroad-tying shenanigans-organization and invests.

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5500
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2017, 12:55:48 AM »
if you want realism then you need an easy way as well as a hard way because the pre-cataclysm world wouldn't only have had the hard way
That doesn't follow, the "easy" way would be either a full surgical procedure or a clinic like setting similar to a tatoo/piercing parlor, neither of which exist any more.  There is a MOD in one of the settlements that can install and remove CBMs for you, that's the easy way.
also, maybe scale painkillers with difficulty? the easy ones don't require nearly enough cutting to warrant 100 painkiller. like cranial flashlight, you make one incision on your forehead, stick an LED in there and seal it up, maybe a little painful but i doubt that is 100 painful.
I don't have a problem with this concept in general, but its pretty far down the road, and i think adding it right now would make things worse and the short term.

What happened between February and July?
I took another look at the issue from the point of view of painkiller use, and realized that installation would have side effects such as leaving drugs in your system after the procedure,  so requiring a batch of painkillers in each kit doesn't make sense. There are a number of reasons why you might not need to use the painkillers bundled with the kit, which includes characters that dont need it at all.

What I get from this discussion so far is that the painkiller mechanic would be an ok one with more feedback to the player.

One of the problem with painkillers seems to be that it does a lot of hidden stuff that can lead you to accidentaly OD, and you don't really learn how those hidden stuff work through a game because you never have to use painkiller with no pain. Usually you're in pain, you take a pill and wait for the pain to go down , you have an indication of the effect via the pain meter and a rough idea of the painkiller strength from description/real life.

But with the cbm you're not in pain so the only way to follow the effect of the pill is to blindy wait and check the cbm installation prompt from time to time, that seems to be a bit annoying and confusing because you have no idea how long to wait or how much is too much.
That's a good point, I was under the impression that "pregaming" before combat was fairly common, but perhaps not.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline tarburst98

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 212
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2017, 01:27:06 AM »
ah, another thing i thought of is accounting for pain altering mutations like Deadened.

Offline NFossil

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2017, 04:37:15 AM »
Wow this really blew up. I didn't mean to.

I still haven't played the relevant change. Reading the thread gave me the impression that the following might be part of the problem:

How it is balanced right now is an issue, as there is no way to tell how much is enough painkillers without killing you and generally doing it by trial and error.
Which makes it seriously unbalance, something that already had very harsh punishment for failing.
Can you outline the actual sequence of actions you took that led to death? You geet fedback about whether you have enough painkiller each time you attempt to install a CBM, so if you just do:
Take painkiller, wait, attempt installation
repeat.

It will just work.
If you skip the "wait" part, it's not going to end well, which is why the CBM failure installation messages warn that painkillers might not have fully taken effect yet.

Waiting for medicine to take effect might be common sense in real life, but is rarely a factor in video game logic. Of course it is right at home in a game as detailed as CDDA, but the problem is that the rest of the game does not "train" the player to expect this, and often even expresses the opposite impression that medicines here work just like regular video game logic.

When you take food, your fullness changes instantly after eating (I don't know if there's a hidden nutrient value that increases gradually). First aid kits instantly cure infections after use. Vitamin pills instantly cure scurvy after use. Maybe I haven't been taking enough painkillers to be aware of the gradual effect, but other more commonly used consumables work instantly. I literally only knew that "waiting for effect" is a thing through this post.

I see that there's a failure message that reminds the player of waiting. How about moving the reminder to the Y/N prompt before installation, especially when or after the CBM installation process is being fleshed out?

Offline Alec White

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 205
  • I'm shy
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2017, 05:32:53 AM »
When I followed your directions, I did, "apply morphine, wait 5 min, check CBM install" three times, the third time I noticed the message changed to "You aren't quite numb enough" instead of "You need to be a lot more numb", so my inclination was to wait longer to be safe

Then that makes the mechanic a "trial and error" kind, with the fact that "error" in this case means instantaneous death.

You're asking a lot of leading questions here that assume what the "correct" answer is and pretty much assert that the contributors to this issue didn't put enough thought into it, that's downright rude.

What I assume or not is irrelevant to the fact that you haven't answered any of my totally on-topic questions.
And the fact that you opted to brush it aside, may or may make me believe, that you implied that it wasn't the right thing to do.
Of course all this could be solved if you answered my question, but as you didn't I can only make up my opinion based on the way you chose to not answer them.

And being this thread about the CBM topic, and the questions I made being entirely on-topic. In my opinion is even more rude to not answered them, and on top of that imply that even the mere fact of asking on-topic question in the first place is "downright rude".

I apologize if the questions felt rude. But if the mere fact of asking question of the thread's topic, about in-game mechanic are not going to be answered because somehow they are "rude", how can we even have constructive discussion about it if we can't even ask questions about it?

The questions put in doubt the rationale and reasons of the game mechanic. Is it not allowed to question the game mechanics now?

Because if now questioning the game mechanics is going to be taken as "rude", we might as well delete the whole forum. As it will be impossible to have any discussion about the game, that isn't to agree with the game mechanics.

I'm sorry if I'm reading too much into it. But my questions were not answered and were even called rude, which is frustrating. But that's what I understood out of the dismissal.

Offline Valiant

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2017, 07:19:20 AM »
If anyone interested, I added info on maximum painkiller intensity on the wiki: (http://cddawiki.chezzo.com/cdda_wiki/index.php?title=Hidden_stats#Painkillers).

Offline Knossos

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2017, 07:27:01 AM »
What about a medical tool that tells you how much of a substance you have in your system? Ordinarily, this would require blood analysis which is not instant. But, being that the game also has future age CBMs, a future age medical tool would make sense.

It could also be super rare.

Offline dovla

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2017, 11:51:24 AM »
Any particular reason Sensory Dulling CBM doesn't seem to allow for CBM installation?

Quote
Your nervous system is wired to allow you to inhibit the signals of pain, allowing you to dull your senses at will. However, the use of this system may cause delayed reaction time and drowsiness.

Sounds pretty much ideal for this purpose but I tried installing it, then flipping the thing on and even waiting a while but I wasn't able to install new CBMs.

Offline Coolthulhu

  • Contributor
  • Survivor
  • ****
  • Posts: 3753
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 12:00:51 PM »
Any particular reason Sensory Dulling CBM doesn't seem to allow for CBM installation?

No, just an omission. Will probably be allowed soon.

Offline Azrad

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2622
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 12:23:30 PM »
Would self-aware provide help in letting you know with better accuracy with regards to having enough painkillers in your survivor?
Strawberry Surprise: it's a meal, drink, morale booster, painkiller, ethanol burner fuel, and coping mechanism in one gulp!

Offline Valiant

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: "Used" CBMs as analogy to "filthy clothes" mod
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2017, 06:29:42 PM »
Would self-aware provide help in letting you know with better accuracy with regards to having enough painkillers in your survivor?
Not likely, I think higher skills in first aid, medical profession and maybe higher intelligence would fit better for this.