Poll

How do you feel about the recent change to the CBM installation rules?

I like the way it is now.
4 (8.5%)
I like the change but feel it needs some balance
16 (34%)
I think the change would be better if painkillers only increased success chances but were not a requirement.
13 (27.7%)
I don't care.
5 (10.6%)
I liked the old way.
9 (19.1%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Voting closes: Today at 05:02:01 PM

Author Topic: CBM changes and you - POLL  (Read 1098 times)

Offline Treah

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CBM changes and you - POLL
« on: July 25, 2017, 05:02:01 PM »
Hello all I wanted to create this poll to get a feel for how end users felt about this change. This is not meant to be used to try and change any of the dev's mind on the change or to try and get the PR reversed. I am simply interested in how you feel.

Please also this is not another place to once again vent on how you hate the change but only to judge what the community overall thinks of the change. Please remember that the game is still actively developed by many people and sometimes changes are made to the base game that are not finished / fleshed out/ or simply disliked. Its impossible to make everyone happy but if something is overwhelmingly disliked it

I am as much as possible trying to stay neutral on this issue as I don't really have any feelings about the old or the new way.

Offline End Transmission

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 05:07:16 PM »
I have literally never lived long enough to have successfully installed a CBM.

*hangs head in shame*

I cannot meaningfully contribute to this poll.
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Offline Tamior

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2017, 06:00:04 PM »
Hello all I wanted to create this poll to get a feel for how end users felt about this change. This is not meant to be used to try and change any of the dev's mind on the change or to try and get the PR reversed. I am simply interested in how you feel.

Please also this is not another place to once again vent on how you hate the change but only to judge what the community overall thinks of the change. Please remember that the game is still actively developed by many people and sometimes changes are made to the base game that are not finished / fleshed out/ or simply disliked. Its impossible to make everyone happy but if something is overwhelmingly disliked it

I am as much as possible trying to stay neutral on this issue as I don't really have any feelings about the old or the new way.
What exactly are you talking about and when was the PR rolled (version and date)?

Offline Alec White

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2017, 06:07:36 PM »
Voted "needs balance" as there's no "needs a re-design" option.

And regarding the CBM changes in general, I'm going to say what I already said previously.

CBM were supposed to be a kit of the bionic and all the tools needed to install it.
A brand new CBM looted from a locked cage in a lab should not need anaesthetic or any kind of tool to install it.
A salvaged or butchered bionic out of a corpse, should need anaesthetic and tools to install

Thanks to #20892 any CBM regardless if it was hard earned through lab raiding and hacking a locked box or just killing and butchering a random technician, needs lots of painkillers.
So far installing CBM already made almost obligatory to use any kind of intelligence enhancing drug to reduce the fail chances. Which is what the majority of players did, as it has become the current metagame of installing CBMs. As the consequence of a bad installation range from a faulty bionic, mutation or death.

This seems to be a rather lazy and incomplete implementation of distinguishing between low-difficulty RNG based butchered bionics or hard-difficulty looted CBMs proper.

I understand the need between killing a zombie technician with a rock in a sock, butcher it with a pocket knife and getting a CBM; and having to get a lab card, deal with security turrets, manhacks and security bots, hack a CBM display case to get a CBM.

Plus painkillers being as vague as they are at telling the player how much is enough, and that there's a fine line between enough painkillers and "your breath stops completely", having specialized anaesthetic would be needed for the current state of CBMs.

If we are going to differentiate between CBMs and butchered bionic, we need a properly designed and implemented system. Instead of further penalizing all kinds of CBMs regardless of how they were acquired.

And even less if it is going to be done just slapping fixes and patches on top of the previous changes.

If the end goal is to flesh-out and add more realism to CBMs, it should first be designing thoroughly as a whole and then implemented.
Not just add random bits here and there, and then slap band-aids when players find out that it is badly made.

I think the benefits of re-designing from the ground up an existing game mechanic versus adding small changes and then band-aids on top of those changes, without having into account the game mechanic as a whole are far outweighs it the "improvising" method.

As improvising causes a great deal of issues, and sometimes create a cascade of issues, as CBMs need painkiller has show:

  • Sudden uncommunicated change to CBMs idea as a whole
  • Use of a one of the very few opaque mechanics to the player
  • Creation of game-breaking situations: coupling of opaque mechanic with the new mechanic resulting in unexplained death
  • Causing rushed fixes for said mechanic: no CBM painkiller mod, adding more detailed information, bringing to high priority reworking of previous existing game mechanic

Now I heard several player "fixes" for it like trying using a "trial and error" method. But so far in CDDA there's hasn't being a focus on mechanics and items which causes instantaneous death, without telling the player how she dies, only why.
"Why" as in "your breath stops completely" due to painkiller overdose.
"How" as in you don't know how much painkillers increase the painkiller cap number nor how much is that mysterious number.
It can be solved too if the player is forced to look at the source code, or "trial and error" when "error" means death.

Regarding forcing the player to take a look the source doe and JSON files to understand how to play and not die. A game should never force the player to have to look under the hood to learn how to play. That's a sign of bad game design.

Regarding "trial and error".
CDDA has never been that type of rogue-like, unless of course this is the point which CDDA turns into a high-stakes, high-tension win all or loose all game.
In which case I would stop playing the new CDDA, and I'll be switching to Coolthulhu's patches, as I think it would retain the spirit of the old CDDA.


Going into detail of the cascade of fixes needed, this "improvising" method of doing things brings forth the opaque painkiller mechanic, turning it from a relatively unobtrusive system, to a critical system as it causes instantaneous player death.

"Opaque" as this is one of the very few mechanics in-game that doesn't give any clear information or feedback to the player. It relies on a hidden painkiller number, items that increases said stats without informing the player of how, and then causing instantaneous death if the painkiller number goes above certain hidden number.

All of this increasing the amount of work, player frustration and specially making it not fun to play.

And at the end of the day fun and entertainment is all this is about, if bad game design takes away your fun and entertainment then I hope that Coolthulhu's patches and people like Coolthulhu will keep working for making the game fun us.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 04:02:42 AM by Alec White »

Offline DeWolf

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2017, 06:46:03 PM »
To be fair I haven't played the experimental where this is implemented yet so I have no idea. However my main idea when testing new features is to give the player the ability to turn it of or at least parts of it if they don't like it, similar to how you can turn off the nutrition system if you turn a mod on or disable filthy things by turning it off(although I would have much preferred the old system of that where the clothes themselves were dirty and not the rags you get from them but details)but have it by default so that at the very least players have the chance to try it out first before simply saying this sucks without trying it at all.

Offline NFossil

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2017, 07:05:15 PM »
I'm more worried about the alleged future direction of requiring a doctor to install them for you. To be fair a lot of the CBM descriptions just don't sound like something you can install for your self, as long as "self-installing kits" isn't a thing. But would the planned change force playing with NPC on? Missions? Companions? Are there solo alternatives like fixing some sort of surgery robots in abandoned hospitals?

Again I strongly prefer butcher/pristine CBM distinction. Maybe pristine CBMs can work like MREs (I'm sure I've seen that comparison in the recent discussion somewhere), where disassembling a looted CBM kit from a shop or lab gives the parts and some surgery supplies, while butchering zombies only gives parts.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 07:13:04 PM by NFossil »

Offline Outcast

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2017, 08:37:11 PM »
Voted "needs balance" as there's no "needs a re-design" option.

. . .

Regarding forcing the player to take a look the source doe and JSON files to understand how to play and not die. A game should never force the player to have to look under the hood to learn how to play. That's a sign of bad game design.

I'm relatively new to Cataclysm: DDA and so far I've found bionics to be a cool thing that is always "just" out of reach. I've got high stats (Over 10 in everything, I'm using StatsThroughSkills mod) and my Electronics and Mechanical skills are also high (10 in both) but bionic fail chance is so close to guaranteed that making the attempt and risking an instant death just is not worth it.

Because I haven't been able to successfully install Bionics yet I'm not sure if I should comment or not but for what it is worth I agree with a lot of what Alec White is saying. Making found "Kit" based bionics different and easier to install than butchered/recovered (and perhaps crafted) bionics does sound like a good way to go.

Offline Tamior

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 08:56:29 PM »
Can someone explain or link what has been changed, exactly?

Offline Alec White

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2017, 10:24:39 PM »
However my main idea when testing new features is to give the player the ability to turn it of or at least parts of it if they don't like it

It was proposed but Kevin didn't wanted to let people choose. https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/21430#issuecomment-317214131



What exactly are you talking about and when was the PR rolled (version and date)?
This and probably this and this and this one too.

Offline End Transmission

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2017, 11:06:22 PM »
Wow, this is quite the contentious issue behind the scenes on Github. +1 to whoever said that players are ignorant schlubbs that are unaware of such issues until they're rolled into a stable build or experimental release w/ launcher. As one such ignorant schlub.
Final report of the commercial starship Nostromo, third officer reporting. The other members of the crew - Kane, Lambert, Parker, Brett, Ash, and Captain Dallas - are dead. Cargo and ship destroyed. I should reach the frontier in about six weeks. With a little luck, the network will pick me up.

Offline Fris0uman

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2017, 12:20:30 AM »
I think everything has already been said on the issue in http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=14746.0 , but since then I've been able to install several CBMs and while I like the fact that you can no longer install CBMs on the fly, the mechanic of take painkiller/try to install/wait/try to install/wait/try to install/wait/try to install/wait/try to install/wait/try to install/wait/try to install/etc.... is a gigantic pain.

After trial and error it seems that 1 codeine/30min/1codeine/30 min and then install kind of works.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2017, 03:53:29 AM »
I'm going to use this chance to address some points here.
Please also this is not another place to once again vent on how you hate the change
You're off topic, please post this sort of thing elsewhere.
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Offline Alec White

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 04:02:58 AM »
You're off topic, please post this sort of thing elsewhere.

Is very rude of you thinking and implying that I'm "venting" after all the explanations, arguments and analysis I have brother to give.


Moved the other bit to http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=14778.0.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:04:50 AM by Alec White »

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2017, 05:01:51 AM »
Is very rude of you thinking and implying that I'm "venting" after all the explanations, arguments and analysis I have brother to give.
And regarding the CBM changes in general, I'm going to say what I already said previously.
If you're repeating yourself, you're venting.  Also, Treah didn't ask for, "explanations, arguments and analysis", they asked for, "how you feel.".
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
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Offline Alec White

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Re: CBM changes and you - POLL
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2017, 05:08:29 AM »
That's "how I feel" regarding the CBM changes. Treah didn't specified that I should summarized my feelings in 50 characters or less. I explained myself and how I feel about it and did a small analysis of how I feel and what I think about it.

You may not like it, but there's no need to be gratuitously rude just because you don't like how I feel.