Author Topic: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills  (Read 1196 times)

Offline tarburst98

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2017, 11:49:03 PM »
well, current accuracy system makes being simo hiya impossible. sniping at max just doesn't work.

Offline Tamior

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2017, 02:10:45 AM »
For what it's worth, in the current system I find little to no reason to train anything but marksmanship and archery (for early-mid game) and rifles (for mid and late game).
Every other weapon-specific ranged skill just sits there, doing nothing.
So I would be perfectly ok with just 4 skills total or something (1-handed firearms / 2-handed firearms / archery / throwing). But then again, current system works, too.

Also, why crossbows are under archery is a complete mystery to me. Firing a crossbow in much more similar to a rifle than a bow.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 02:13:00 AM by Tamior »

Offline TheKobold

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2017, 02:44:41 AM »
I give up... My point is that all these skills people keep trying to attribute to a specific gun type are not specific to any gun type but are actually consistent across all gun types. And that  some of these skills are not actually skills but actions that other mechanics account  for. And that some don't even have a skill attached to them but are just actions laymen can preform.

As for familiarity with the weapon... that breaks down when you consider the broad collection of weapons in the rifle category and the arguments that the use of each weapon type is distinct

I think after discussion and some research myself, going with Cool's last suggestion of breaking it into actual skills based on accuracy and aim time and others is the best ideal.

Offline Valiant

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2017, 03:41:52 AM »
Also, why crossbows are under archery is a complete mystery to me. Firing a crossbow in much more similar to a rifle than a bow.

Fixed in https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/21545.

Offline NuG

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2017, 01:16:06 PM »
Also, why crossbows are under archery is a complete mystery to me. Firing a crossbow in much more similar to a rifle than a bow.

Fixed in https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/21545.
but but.. now my character, the bioprepper, starts with a crossbow, 2 in archery, and no skill in rifles..... what will I ever dooo! Do you, or anyone reading, think they will eventually change it to 2 in rifles to match the weapon or maybe start him with a reflex recurve bow or some other type of bow(longbow/shortbow/etc.) instead?

Offline Litppunk

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2017, 05:07:04 PM »
Now that you've stated that. Certainly. sounds like it should be a simple fix just a value change or two rather.

Hmm. This ranged skill consolidation could work well in conjunction with the accuracy beats all fix thats on the drawing board.
Condensing it into Handgun, rifle, archery, launcher, and marksmanship. Any weapons found in-between could probably be adjusted to take from both categories at half value or something for calculations. (Skill A+B/2) XP/ 2 -> A & B etc..

Then levels with appropriate weapons could be counted towards effective min/max sight range and penalties/bonuses.
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Offline Valiant

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2017, 05:18:02 PM »
but but.. now my character, the bioprepper, starts with a crossbow, 2 in archery, and no skill in rifles..... what will I ever dooo! Do you, or anyone reading, think they will eventually change it to 2 in rifles to match the weapon or maybe start him with a reflex recurve bow or some other type of bow(longbow/shortbow/etc.) instead?
Soon will be changed in https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/21556.

Offline Adragis029

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2017, 06:43:48 PM »
We need to just have a 'shootaz' stat and a 'choppaz' stat.

Offline Rising Star

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2017, 11:26:58 PM »
If it's okay to say so, all the focus on changes and counter-changes to things like this seems kind of like obsessively drawing and redrawing and adding full detail to a single little face in a single little corner of a drawing when you have a giant, huge canvas still sitting blank. It builds up creative fatigue really fast, and you'll almost certainly have to change it again anyway to fit with the rest of the substance you add in later, or else grit your teeth and leave it unsatisfying because you can't bear the thought of reworking it just one more time again.

Obessively overworking one arbitrary aspect of your art comes with a very real risk of coming to resent it, in my experience. Your mileage may vary. I guess what I'm saying is, maybe it would be best to keep it simple for now, and come back to it when more of the broader game content is filled in to balance around?

Offline RedPine

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2017, 12:15:53 AM »
If it's okay to say so, all the focus on changes and counter-changes to things like this seems kind of like obsessively drawing and redrawing and adding full detail to a single little face in a single little corner of a drawing when you have a giant, huge canvas still sitting blank. It builds up creative fatigue really fast, and you'll almost certainly have to change it again anyway to fit with the rest of the substance you add in later, or else grit your teeth and leave it unsatisfying because you can't bear the thought of reworking it just one more time again.

Obessively overworking one arbitrary aspect of your art comes with a very real risk of coming to resent it, in my experience. Your mileage may vary. I guess what I'm saying is, maybe it would be best to keep it simple for now, and come back to it when more of the broader game content is filled in to balance around?

I don't think reducing the number of weapon skills would meaningfully affect the game either way.  I would prefer fewer skills myself (one handed, two handed, throwing, archery, heavy/"other"), but that's just that - a preference.

Offline Litppunk

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2017, 12:52:45 AM »
This is just a drawing board thread. Not a "We are currently deving this in" thread. When the idea is finished hashed out If it sounds like a good idea to a dev Then someone will probably get to it After they have finished with anything they think more important.

Or if they get bored/ agravated with a current project and want to beat out something different.

 Most likely though, someone, probably not even a "core" dev, comes along and knocks this into a mod, or it just never happens.
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Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2017, 03:41:17 AM »
Obessively overworking one arbitrary aspect of your art comes with a very real risk of coming to resent it, in my experience. Your mileage may vary. I guess what I'm saying is, maybe it would be best to keep it simple for now, and come back to it when more of the broader game content is filled in to balance around?
This is a real risk, but the point of a thread like this is precisely to reach some kind of ageement about what the new thing should look like before expending that kind of effort.  The outcome of this thread is basically "keep it the way it is".  Other potential valuable outcomes are, "make some minor fixes to the existing implementation", "adjust the design and make sure future changes move in that new direction" or "throw it all out and start over". 

I do have to point out the counterargument though, which is that neglecting your foundations can lead to even more work in the future because you've built so much new content or functionality on top of the old stuff, and then you have to overhaul all the new stuff and the old stuff before you can make any forward progress.  Partitioning the various actions the player can perform into skills is definitely one of those foundational things that we would prefer to overhal sooner rather than later to avoid invalidating parts of the ever-growing mountain of json data that makes up the content of the game.  Again though, the current state is, "keep it the way that it is".
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Online RipRoarinBoogerPenis

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2017, 06:55:28 AM »
I vote for small arms, long arms, archery, misc ranged, and marksman skills. Worked well enough for fallout.

Offline Chezzo

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2017, 03:38:18 PM »
The doxygen (http://dev.narc.ro/cataclysm/doxygen/Effects_Skill_Rifle.html) says all it effects is reload time,  aim speed, getting it out and pouring it away.  Auxy in the IRC let me know you need weapon skill to attach gun mods.

Offline Solusphere

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2017, 04:03:37 AM »
Now that crossbows no longer use archery, they should probably have the archery skill requirement to craft them removed, or at least reduced. A crossbow has a secondary skill requirement of Archery 3 to craft, and a steel crossbow bolt needs a whopping Archery 5. This should probably be changed to requiring a mix of fabrication and mechanics instead.

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