Author Topic: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills  (Read 1830 times)

Offline NuG

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2017, 08:46:21 PM »
Now that crossbows no longer use archery, they should probably have the archery skill requirement to craft them removed, or at least reduced. A crossbow has a secondary skill requirement of Archery 3 to craft, and a steel crossbow bolt needs a whopping Archery 5. This should probably be changed to requiring a mix of fabrication and mechanics instead.

This was also a concern of mine with using any character with a crossbow. I've been taking 2 in rifles at char creation and when I first start, I debug away the 2 in archery and put the points in rifles(when i use the BioPrepper). I was thinking some of the skills to craft where archery, and now that it levels rifles instead, what's going to happen. Should the crossbow stay with that and become stronger(or is it strong enough to warrant needing archery as well?). I understand that a crossbow is a bow on a rifle body pretty much, so it makes sense to need the skill, but from a game play perspective, if there isn't too much of an advantage why not just use a relex recurve bow(or whatever) instead.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Offline Neonwarrior

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2017, 05:24:20 AM »
Watching Kevin and Coolthulhu go at it in these suggestion threads is the reason why I come to this forum! Kidding.

So, Coolthulhu wants to reduce the number of skills based on his own opinion that there are too many. Kevin wants to flesh out the system even more for the sake of realism and because replacing the current system is a lot of work. Both of you guys have good ideas.

Here's my opion: sorry Coolthulhu, but I just don't know if merging the skills into "small guns" and "big guns" like Fallout: New Vegas is the solution, nor is taking away any of the 8 ranged skills already in the game. Each ranged skill category should represent true understanding and knowledge of a certain type of weapon, down to the components themselves, recoil patterns, and techniques. Having a high skill level in them means that you should be proficient in the operation, maintenance, and modification of those specific weapons. It's not realistic to merge these together, and C:DDA is aiming to be realistic.

The number of skills should remain the way they are because it represents the reality that, yes, there are many types of guns out there and they are all operated differently from each other. It's reasonable to assume that as a person's familiarity grows with a type of weapon, that they can operate weapons like it more easily—you get used to reloading it, aiming it, clearing jams quickly, and also your stance and grip of the gun itself will evolve as your skill grows. You adopt techniques from trial and error to more easily handle a weapon at different ranges of engagement. It's not simple—you can take classes to learn these techniques, and they teach them to you in the military.

You want to merge rifles and shotguns together as the same skill group, or perhaps merging them all into small guns and big guns. This isn't realistic. I can tell you, having fired them, that rifles and shotguns are not similar in any way other than you hold them with two hands, aim, and pull the trigger. You don't operate a bolt on a shotgun, you don't load magazines into one (with some exceptions), the recoil of firing one is much different, the weight and length of the weapon is different (depending on the weapon type), the internal mechanisms are different, and the iron sights are different. Conversely, you don't load shells into a rifle, you don't pump a rifle, you hold a rifle in a different grip, and there are different methods to, for example, clearing a jam. My point is that these two types of guns deserve to have their own skills associated with their general use, because they are different enough to justify having them separate. Same thing for the other 6 skills.

Yes, it's true, a certain level of skill with using firearms carries over to other firearms—the subconscious muscle memory associated with aiming and shooting. We have this system represented in the game already as the Marksmanship skill (none of the Fallout games even have a marksmanship skill, by the way). So, for example, if you're used to shooting a rifle, you SHOULD be able to switch from a rifle to a shotgun and be reasonably accurate if you have a high Marksmanship skill, but every other aspect of operating the shotgun—like reloading it and maintaining it—will be foreign to you, though to be fair it isn't very difficult in comparison to a rifle.

Coolthulhu, you want to balance out all, or at least some, of the weapon types so that they aren't overshadowed by Rifles. That is understandable from a video-game perspective where everything has to be balanced to encourage different modes of play, but as for me, I think rifles SHOULD be the best weapons in the game. This is how it is in reality, and just look to our militaries for proof; all of our modern military forces use assault rifles as their go-to weapon because it is simply better in more situations than any other weapon. Other types of weapons are situational, and pistols are always a backup; it's rare to see a soldier use a shotgun or any other weapon unless they KNOW that they are going to be in a situation that better calls for one over an assault rifle (discounting special units like machinegunners, designated marksmen, snipers, etc). Assault rifles are the end-game weapon in reality, and so they should be the end-game weapon in the game too. Calling for the weaker guns to be balanced to contend with the stronger ones is just missing the point of this game: to be realistic.

Now, this isn't to say that there isn't some balancing to do. I think that rifles DO over-perform at least a bit, because of the whole "accuracy is always better" meta going on. Once they figure out how to fix the aiming acquirement problem, I think it will give more reason to forego your AK or your bolt-action and pick up a Skorpion instead.

Also, as an off topic, I would love to see ranged abilities that are performed with the same vein as melee moves. Maybe things like a quick-shot, holding your breath, putting the gun directly to a zombie's skull before firing, spray-n-pray to hit several targets in front of you with a machine gun, shooting and moving at the same time—risky and versatile moves that would be possible with certain types of weapons to help differentiate them a bit. Oh, and having a system where your character becomes more familiar with an individual weapon would be cool, as everyone realistic does prefer certain guns over others, even if they're the same type.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 05:38:49 AM by Neonwarrior »

Offline Litppunk

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2017, 04:14:57 PM »
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Offline Cosmitz

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2017, 11:11:22 PM »
Can new kids comment as well?

Cutting all realism discussions aside and talking raw game design, if a player finds an SMG early on, and uses it for enough time to get some early leveles in, he will be predisposed to continue using SMGs. Current accuracy math even maxed doesn't allow precise fire at true ranges, and early game firearms are all over the place anyway, so he'd be reticent to go back and risk life and limb to train rifles or pistols. Even if he is forced by ammo restrictions to go into another skill set, it may feel like wasted time when he shot the SMG apart from whatever tiny Marksmanship bonus he raised. So let's take a look back then.

A skill system in a long-term, free-form sandbox game like CDDA has to fulfill two design goals, variety and mastery. Variety relates to making sure the game doesn't allow the to pidgeonhole himself out of fear or a feeling of familiarity. If he sees a new shiny thing, he should be thinking 'yay, can't wait to use this', not 'this is going into the shit pile'. Mastery relates to the late-game enjoyability of the game and the roleplaying aspect, of allowing the player to feel he succeeds in challenging tasks because of his character's specific skills.

So turning back to CDDA, the ranged weapon system tries to do both of these things but falls short.

Cross-classing/variety is handled by Marksmanship. If you decide to switch guns, you're somewhat confident that you're not losing out too much, thanks to Marksmanship, but it's not a skill you care about, it's a superfluous passive buff somewhere in the background that the player has no control over and which doesn't have any hard influence. You don't know if you're shooting better because of marksmanship or because of your gun skill going up.

The mastery is handled by their proper weapon skills, but this in turn puts the pressure on specialisation and leads to players dedicating themselves to a particular branch. This wouldn't be an issue if the cut-off point was later on in the game, but players often choose from the get go a specific class either because they know they can get certain weapons easier or because they know the end-game meta and what they'll want to use. That journey is long, and a skilled rifle player might be enticed to use that grenade launcher sitting in his car for some ops, but his skill is 0 and doesn't want to blow himself up accidentally. So mastery ends up as less of a 'success by doing' and more of a 'success by abstaining'.

------

So what's my take? Put most of the large bonuses in the current Marksmanship (renamed smtg@Ranged Weapons), the ones that physically allow you to shoot further and better, so no matter what gun you pick up, you will be at least competent with it. Then create 3-4 subcategories to cover the rest and that pertain to weapon-specifics and have the subcategories significantly boost a particular aspect of the playstyle of the gun-class. So if we have say, 'small arms', that particular skill would increase reload rates and accuracy on the move for pistols and SMGs, while 'longarms' would increase accuracy and steadyness gain for rifles/shotguns. The subgroups are at your discretion, but 'Small Arms', 'Long arms', 'Heavy weapons' and 'Exotic' should suffice. Even if it will seem 'weird' putting Bows next to the A7, it will play well to create a more cohesive class, and cut out the competition between each weapon class to be 'competitive'. (See why everyone goes Rifle)

Voila, you can switch to that slinged MP5 from your Mosin without fear that you should have trained that skill on ants beforehand, and when you do make a spectacular shot with said Mosin, you know it is because you have shot a lot of Long Arms.

Games that went that way left the player with comfrotably choosing a primary and secondary, instead of the 'I ONLY SHOOT PISTOLS BECAUSE THIS IS A PISTOL CHARACTER' we have had so far. The same concept can be applied to melee weapons if for internal consistency. Melee giving main bonuses, with Unarmed/Armed/Throwing/Dodging as subcategories buffing their respective playstyle. (though i personally dislike the concept of Dodge as a skill but eh)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 11:30:54 PM by Cosmitz »

Offline Litppunk

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2017, 02:24:59 AM »
I am starting to see a pattern of desire for cross-weapons skill at lower levels where most training is not weapon specific.

Perhaps marksmanship should be more important, or train faster at lower levels?
Or some sort of bleed-over training mechanic could be inserted, having a 'max bleed-over skill leveling' cap so that becoming level 10 rifle means a 3~4 shotgun, and 1~2 pistol on its own

with the highly variable skill rust options making a robust enough system may be a small challenge. But something to tame the outrage of lvl 10 rifles, 0 skill with rifled shotgun w/slugs and 0 skill w/ pistol. Despite obvious crossover skills involved in each.

This could also be used in crafting for things where the item being crafted wants not only a core skill, but has multiple required skills, without forcing leveling of required skills unless they deserve it.

So you can craft a bow which core skill is fab... or is it survival?, with required skill archery. Have bleed-over training off for archery in that recipe.

But with say, something involving fab & mechanics skills there would be adjustable bleed-over

probably best to make it optional:
item Xp total%
additional bleedover%

where xp total bleedover would steal xp from core skill
and 'additional bleedover gives 100% to core skill and a lesser percent to required skill (unless max cap is already hit)
Feeds both of grandpas wolves, and but doesn't let them fight; Then saves the car full of cash sells it and starts an orphanage, anti-railroad-tying shenanigans-organization and invests.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2017, 02:33:16 AM »
Other than differentiation of bonuses provided by weapon-specific skills (which is a good idea), and arbitrarily changing around the domains of weapon-specific skills (which has already been discussed), what you're describing is roughly how the system works now.  All the "how well you aim" bonii come from marksmanship already.

I'll certainly acknowledge a lot of people seem to share this impression, so if be very happy to hear suggestions about how to make that clearer, but it's quite frustrating to keep reading suggestions that say the existing system has problems, but then go on to propose that same system as the solution.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
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Offline Litppunk

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2017, 03:12:15 AM »
Other than differentiation of bonuses provided by weapon-specific skills (which is a good idea), and arbitrarily changing around the domains of weapon-specific skills (which has already been discussed), what you're describing is roughly how the system works now.  All the "how well you aim" bonii come from marksmanship already.

I'll certainly acknowledge a lot of people seem to share this impression, so if be very happy to hear suggestions about how to make that clearer, but it's quite frustrating to keep reading suggestions that say the existing system has problems, but then go on to propose that same system as the solution.
is this aimed at my comment, or everyone in general?

The differentiation of skill Xp alloted bit (sounds better than bleed-over mechanic) is definately at my comment.

Mmm The bit about marksmanship faster leveling at start was redundant of current....but everything else was merely referencing the current system and saying Xp allotment mechanic should theoretically do X with this. not recommending doing what it already does.

Other than that just some bits about 'everyone seems to think X'

Sorry if I sounded like I was adding my voice to the complaints bin, I have posted recently arguing for moderation on the call for minimizing ranged skills while still agreeing that SOME minimizing would be nice. Mostly arguing against the continued existence of SMG which irks me for reasons I don't fully understand.

The previous post however was only intended as... wouldn't mechanic (Xp alocation) resolve alot of these complaints with minimal negative repercussions and several beneficial ones?

Consequently it would also resolve my unexplainable hatred of SMGs current status as a rapid fire pistol without giving any experience to pistols or (assault)rifles.

*sigh* Why are you so right ALL the time? Every time I go to respond to you each additional paragraph has more trouble than the last not just being... ..

dang it you were right, my bad I had this wonderful seeming idea, but despite all the thought I put into it as I wrote, it still wasn't any better than what you already had.

I'll try to keep my ideas better noted as 'food for thought' then actual suggestions in the future, since thats what I actually intend of them anyways. Haven't ever straight up suggested anything intending for anyone to attempt to implement as suggested.
Feeds both of grandpas wolves, and but doesn't let them fight; Then saves the car full of cash sells it and starts an orphanage, anti-railroad-tying shenanigans-organization and invests.

Offline Neonwarrior

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2017, 05:12:48 AM »
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:20:41 AM by Neonwarrior »

Offline Litppunk

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2017, 08:40:21 AM »
Yeah most of what I said changes completely in the face that kevin is looking to increase everything in time not shrink. Including SMGs.... I still don't understand where that pet peeve came from.

The realism quote I will argue though. What I said is true, but you are also right. Bathroom breaks and other such things were ruled out because it would make gameplay tedious just to satisfy realism. It draws mechanics from realism, but the aim is not to be hyper-realistic, just as realistic as we can get without excess tedium as I understand it.

Some of that read back more... abrasive and aggressive than I had originally intended as well. My apologies on that.
Feeds both of grandpas wolves, and but doesn't let them fight; Then saves the car full of cash sells it and starts an orphanage, anti-railroad-tying shenanigans-organization and invests.

Offline Mantar

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2017, 01:53:15 AM »
bonii
>:( That's not a word. That's a pseudo-Latin abomination.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2017, 02:45:49 AM »
bonii
>:( That's not a word. That's a pseudo-Latin abomination.
My bad, "bonuses".  I'll be sure to remember that.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!