Author Topic: improving ranged skill handling. was: Getting rid of some of the ranged skills  (Read 303 times)

Offline jcd

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Very late to the party, and maybe i should leave it alone.. But still..

Regarding the current system:
  • To my understanding, the markmanship is the generic ranged skill, while the others are weapontype-specific. Gun use is affected by both the generic and the specific skill. This sounds sensible, as markmanship represents the general ranged weapon affinity and firerarm skill spillover to other type of ranged arms, while the other skills represent familiarity & skill with a specific weapontype.
  • Also, the current system implicitly assumes that the guns sharing a specific weapontype skill are sufficiently similar to use (but not to maintain - mechanics take care of maintenance). This is already arbitrary, in the sense that there are edge cases and outliers (eg. minigun, crossbow, modded weapons stock and barrel retaining their parent firearm category) not handled correctly, but the detail level is arbitrary, not the categorization itself.
The question should be: how can the ranged skill system be improved, so that the edge cases diminish, while other cases stay well represented?

I'd argue that to do so the best way would be to specifically model gun handling based on gun shape, length, weight and special ergonomics. This still does not mean that skills need to change as it does not taking into account weapon skill. Adding a skill bonus for specific gun configurations and shapes would work, but when clustering those we would end up with typical weaponskill categories such as ('rifles','smgs', etc). Well, this 'gun handling' idea would need its own thread and debate.


Beyond this, i've expended a bit of time into trying to devise a better system based on the current idea. My conclusion is that this way of doing things is already good enough. Those are the only comments i do have, which could be seen as small improvements on top of the current system:
  • Energy weapons could use an 'energy weapon' skill, which would work like markmanship, on top of the specific weaponskill used for the specific energy weapon (so eg. for a laser pistol, each shot would be affected by markmanship, pistol and 'energy weapons' skills at the same time). This is because presumably all energy weapons would share some common attributes - eg. no recoil, similar charge and fire mechanics), that would be very different from all conventional firearms.
  • I would merge shotgun and rifle skills. They do differ, but the difference can be represented via gun and ammo stat differences i think. Are they that different in their handling? Don't think so. (though the way they would get used differs due to the ammo difference)
  • Modding a weapon should possibly change its type. Specifically fiddling with stocks and barrels of pistols, smgs and low caliber rifles could make one handle like the other, thus change type. Could this be made into a simple tracking system that changes the weapontype if applicable after modding a gun?
  • Changing the 'launchers' skill into 'heavy weapons' might be useful. One use i can think is moving the minigun to that skill (not certain this is a good idea WRT to realism and other side-effects though)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 04:43:23 PM by jcd »

Offline Kevin Granade

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Very late to the party, and maybe i should leave it alone.. But still..
How about we just start a new party instead? :D
Regarding the current system:
Your understanding of the current system matches mine, with just one point of difference, it kind of still represents maintenance (mod installation, ammo crafting), but I think it shouldn't, and we should just leave them as combat skills.
I'd argue that to do so the best way would be to specifically model gun handling based on gun shape, length, weight and special ergonomics. This still does not mean that skills need to change as it does not taking into account weapon skill. Adding a skill bonus for specific gun configurations and shapes would work, but when clustering those we would end up with typical weaponskill categories such as ('rifles','smgs', etc). Well, this 'gun handling' idea would need its own thread and debate.
Feel free to either expand on that here or spin off a new thread, but at first glance this sounds more like a way to rationalize the current system than a change to how it works. The major way it loses out is if people don't understand the weapon classes and get confused about what is what, part of the benefit of "pistol", "rifle", "smg" is players know roughly what those classifications mean.  If you're not careful you can end up switching to something more specific and correct that your players don't understand.
Energy weapons could use an 'energy weapon' skill, which would work like markmanship, on top of the specific weaponskill used for the specific energy weapon (so eg. for a laser pistol, each shot would be affected by markmanship, pistol and 'energy weapons' skills at the same time). This is because presumably all energy weapons would share some common attributes - eg. no recoil, similar charge and fire mechanics), that would be very different from all conventional firearms.
This is an interesting point.  It might be what Coolthulu was getting at when he objected to plaster pistols being handled by the pistols skill.
A major difference is that lasers in particular are continuous fire weapons to a much greater extent than say a machine gun.  With a laser, initial aim is actually less important than holding the beam on target as long as you're firing.  This concept could use a lot more development in the game and it could very well deserve it's own skill.
[I would merge shotgun and rifle skills. They do differ, but the difference can be represented via gun and ammo stat differences i think. Are they that different in their handling? Don't think so. (though the way they would get used differs due to the ammo difference)
The problem is that some of the use cases are very similar and some are very different.  If you're deer stalking with a shotgun vs a rifle they're fairly similar in handling, you try to get relatively close and land a hit before the deer notices you.  In both cases you shoulder the firearm, and sweep your aim across the target, firing when your point of aim intersects your target point.  Sniping on the other hand is totally different, and something you basically never do with a shotgun.
Hmm, if I put it that way, sniping is the difference, maybe that can just be a tertiary skill like you suggested for energy weapons.
Modding a weapon should possibly change its type. Specifically fiddling with stocks and barrels of pistols, smgs and low caliber rifles could make one handle like the other, thus change type. Could this be made into a simple tracking system that changes the weapontype if applicable after modding a gun?
This should definitely happen.
  • Changing the 'launchers' skill into 'heavy weapons' might be useful. One use i can think is moving the minigun to that skill (not certain this is a good idea WRT to realism and other side-effects though)

There are other options.  If a weapon is different enough it can simply not have a secondary skill.  Alternately it can have a dedicated skill that isn't shared with anything else.
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Offline Maddremor

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The problem is that some of the use cases are very similar and some are very different.  If you're deer stalking with a shotgun vs a rifle they're fairly similar in handling, you try to get relatively close and land a hit before the deer notices you.  In both cases you shoulder the firearm, and sweep your aim across the target, firing when your point of aim intersects your target point.  Sniping on the other hand is totally different, and something you basically never do with a shotgun.
Hmm, if I put it that way, sniping is the difference, maybe that can just be a tertiary skill like you suggested for energy weapons.
Could a skill system focused on the different aspects of markmanship instead of weapon types be viable? Something akin to a skill for recovery from recoil, a skill for the time to reach max confidence, a skill for accuracy at long range, a skill for reloading, a skill for countering dodging (at closer range) and so on. A handgun would naturally benefit more from countering dodging at close rage as opposed to more accurate sharpshooting, but all (or most) skills would apply to all guns to some extent. This would also account for modded guns such as an automatic pistol with a stock being close to an SMG, as it would benefit more from SMG-central skills proportonally to how close it is in practical usage.
Admittedly, this is still a half-baked idea in my mind, and would change the nature of the skills system in regard to ranged weaponry.

Offline Litppunk

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Quote
Could a skill system focused on the different aspects of markmanship instead of weapon types be viable? Something akin to a skill for recovery from recoil, a skill for the time to reach max confidence, a skill for accuracy at long range, a skill for reloading, a skill for countering dodging (at closer range) and so on.

I've seen similar ideas floating around here, and with the understanding that kevin is leaning towards more skills, I expect something like this to happen at some point.
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Online NuG

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Do keep in mind some people hunt deer in counties that don't allow rifle hunting, so they use something like this shotgun(http://www.ithacagun.com/deerslayer3.php). It's a shotgun with a rifled barrel and a scope, very similar to a rifle.. but it shoots slugs.

There was also a very popular .270 rifle(http://www.shootingtimes.com/long-guns/longgun_reviews_ga_remmodel760_200903/) that has a magazine and reloads by pump action, just like a shotgun would. So there are rifles out there that do reload by pump action.


Just wanted to throw that out there, not sure how constructive it is. Also irrelevant, my father shot his first deer with that exact type of rifle and his first buck with that exact type of shotgun, and I have shot both guns... only at targets though XD... but not from lack of trying.

Offline BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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There was also a very popular .270 rifle(http://www.shootingtimes.com/long-guns/longgun_reviews_ga_remmodel760_200903/) that has a magazine and reloads by pump action, just like a shotgun would. So there are rifles out there that do reload by pump action.


Just wanted to throw that out there, not sure how constructive it is. Also irrelevant, my father shot his first deer with that exact type of rifle and his first buck with that exact type of shotgun, and I have shot both guns... only at targets though XD... but not from lack of trying.

Wasn't that the rifle James Earl Ray was supposed to have used to kill Martin Luther King Jr.? In spite of its potential as a .270 rifle for Expanded Realistic Guns, the timing of its introduction could be inauspicious.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 03:40:32 AM by BorkBorkGoesTheCode »
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Offline Kevin Granade

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A core feature of the skill system is to reinforce the concept, "when you do things more you get better at them".  If the skills are things like, "aim speed", "recoil recovery", "long range accuracy" or "reload speed", it becomes difficult and un-fun to differentiate between the skills.  Aim speed would train by repeatedly aiming but not shooting, recoil recovery and accuracy would both train by shooting at things, reloading would be a reload/unload grind.
Breaking it up by weapon types differentiates based on your preferences.
I can see augmenting with skills for special actions, but I don't think breaking down by specific gun handling activities is productive.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
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Offline Litppunk

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Hmm. That is rather counterproductive. I'm going to try and think of reasonable alternatives just as soon as I run off this excess energy so I can sit still long enough to think about something in a linear fashion.

Dam medical steroids making me feel too good >.< Does not combine with high metabolism trait well for such purposes.
Feeds both of grandpas wolves, and but doesn't let them fight; Then saves the car full of cash sells it and starts an orphanage, anti-railroad-tying shenanigans-organization and invests.

Online NuG

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There was also a very popular .270 rifle(http://www.shootingtimes.com/long-guns/longgun_reviews_ga_remmodel760_200903/) that has a magazine and reloads by pump action, just like a shotgun would. So there are rifles out there that do reload by pump action.


Just wanted to throw that out there, not sure how constructive it is. Also irrelevant, my father shot his first deer with that exact type of rifle and his first buck with that exact type of shotgun, and I have shot both guns... only at targets though XD... but not from lack of trying.

Wasn't that the rifle James Earl Ray was supposed to have used to kill Martin Luther King Jr.? In spite of its potential as a .270 rifle for Expanded Realistic Guns, the timing of its introduction could be inauspicious.

I wasn't aware of the ties of the gun with that terrible act, that's a shame. I actually didn't know it was even considered popular until looking it up for this thread.

Also, I found a rifled barrel in my current run, I think it's for a shotgun, which is pretty neat! Not sure if it's from the ExtRealGuns mod or not though.