Author Topic: Why was DangerNoodle banned?  (Read 1034 times)

Offline BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« on: August 26, 2017, 04:15:01 AM »
They have done nothing ban-worthy that I can see. That self-deleted post made by Alec White in DangerNoodle's repo seems dodgier than anything DangerNoodle has ever done.
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Offline TheKobold

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2017, 06:28:50 AM »
I've seen a couple of these happen, never seems like it is necessary. Just some butthurt that went to far rationalized as a load of overblown and over exaggerated immaturity.

As some one that has managed a few communities here and there and people in real life, unless some one is directly harming others or directly picking fights(not to be confused with disagreements) then there is no need. All it does is create sour feelings for those that witness it. You can see those feelings now as occasionally people start ragging on Kevin for this stuff and in the obvious tension between devs when they are debating ideals. If it gets to far it will kill this project.

Just some thoughts. Besides the occasional joke comment I have no dog in this fight.


Offline Alec White

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2017, 06:35:03 AM »
That self-deleted post made by Alec White in DangerNoodle's repo seems dodgier than anything DangerNoodle has ever done.
Implying something?

Also DangerNoodle was banned due to https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/21503
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 06:37:08 AM by Alec White »

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2017, 08:06:48 AM »
This is something I do for fun, I'm not going to keep working with someone who is rude and argumentative.  DangerNoodle was both of those things on a regular basis and after asking him to stop a number of times, I gave up on him adjusting his behavior.
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Offline iceball3

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2017, 08:36:24 AM »
This is something I do for fun, I'm not going to keep working with someone who is rude and argumentative.  DangerNoodle was both of those things on a regular basis and after asking him to stop a number of times, I gave up on him adjusting his behavior.
Is there an updated social guidelines to go with this?
As it was, the argument was only approachably inflammatory, rather mutual, and quite substantiated, at least looking at Glyph's post in concerns for it.
It's nice to know quite where the line is drawn, or if just voicing disagreement should be avoided, to avoid getting banned.
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Offline BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2017, 05:03:05 PM »
Alec White thank you for the PM, I'm going to look at the posts you mentioned.
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Offline someguy

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 06:30:41 PM »
This is something I do for fun, I'm not going to keep working with someone who is rude and argumentative.
You understand this sentiment cuts both ways?

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 11:39:41 PM »
You understand this sentiment cuts both ways?
Of course it does, if someone feels they can't work with me they can just stop interacting with me, but that does necessarily mean they stop contributing to the cataclysm repository, because that requires them to interact with me.
If I can't work with someone, I'm not going to leave the project, so I don't have many options left.

If you have a suggestion for how I can handle this sort of thing that doesn't boil down to, "tolerate everything", I'm listening.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
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Offline someguy

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2017, 10:36:35 PM »
I do, but you probably won't like it.

There's plenty of room to manoeuvre between "tolerate everything" and the way you interacted with dangernoodle in that exchange. The discussion was perfectly amicable until you showed up, that's not a coincidence. You might not realise it, but your tone right off the bat was authoritative and condescending. Despite that the guy apologised several times (which you seemed to just ignore), so it's fairly clear he wasn't looking to escalate an argument but was rather being misunderstood and getting frustrated.

I'll echo other people's sentiments and say the whole argument wasn't even that heated, hardly at the "I can never speak or work with this person again" level. Frankly banning the guy just makes you look like you've got a chip on your shoulder.

In short, you need to learn to bend a little more (compromise isn't a dirty word), give people the benefit of the doubt (if someone apologises, take it at face value), and above all grow thicker skin.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2017, 01:06:37 AM »
In short, you need to learn to bend a little more (compromise isn't a dirty word), give people the benefit of the doubt (if someone apologises, take it at face value), and above all grow thicker skin.
Done, I did compromise with DangerNoodle for months, I gave him the benefit of the doubt many times (taking apologies at face value... the first half-dozen times or so, until I realized that he just reflexively said he was sorry any time he was challenged, but never changed his behavior), and I have a pretty damn thick skin.

I've worked with literally hundreds of people on this project over the course of many years, and I've banned literally two people over personality clashes like this.  Has it even crossed your mind that maybe I deserve a little benefit of the doubt?  Have you given any thought to the possibility that I deal with people being rude to me on an incredibly regular basis, and I hardly ever say anything about it?  Have you tried applying your smug suggestions of tolerance to my behavior? Has it even crossed your mind that the other side of this coin is me getting sick of dealing with people harassing me and questioning my every decision and canceling the whole damn project?

Nice armchair criticism though, I give it 4/10, 4.5/10 with rice.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
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Offline someguy

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2017, 01:45:34 AM »
This is what I'm talking about. Was there any real reason to escalate like that? You asked for suggestions, I gave you my honest opinion.

Believe it or not I am giving you the benefit of doubt here because I'm assuming you don't realise how abrasive you come across sometimes, and that being sole point of contact for every contributor might wear on your patience a little (seriously, you need to look into spreading that load).

Offline TheGerbilest

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 06:22:15 AM »
I've been playing this game for years, since before it was dda actually.  I've told many people about it and regularly check in the forums for updates (though I very rarely post).  Just wanted you to know that though I haven't a lot of history in the forums I've actually followed this game for many years.

I appreciate everything you do for the project Kevin, but I have to agree with some of the sentiment here that you seem overworked and are approaching this the wrong way.  I do not see this dangernoodle guy as being out of line in the github discussion nor would I get offended by anything from anyone in that whole conversation if it was one of the projects I was involved in.

If you want to lead an open source project you take on the responsibility to NOT get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this; the community should always come first, regardless of your feelings (justified or not, in this case I feel not).  While I agree that can be shitty for a person, part of being a leading figure in a project like this is dealing with that.  If you can't handle it on your own you should spread out the load more as I've seen suggested earlier (in my opinion of course.)

No ill intentions or anything though, I hope you don't take this as an attack.  However, I will say this has put me off of supporting this game in the future should it ask for funding again... there is also another contributor who has come into prominence who I feel treats others poorly (which you very rarely do) and I no longer feel like it's the welcoming environment I seem to remember.  Maybe just fuzzy memory or something but it seems more negative than it used to be with much more inflated egos (and I don't mean yours necessarily).

Also I do think you jumped on the poster above me pretty hard.  I agree with him that you seem to be escalating... I'm pretty sure he doesn't  have anything against you but you are coming off as pretty rude to him.  It's an open source project... while I fully appreciate how much you do and think that the project wouldn't be nearly as good without you I also fully believe that even if you got sick of it and left someone would eventually pick it up again.  You're a good guy, if this isn't fun for you don't do it... it's not the end of the world if the project falters and stalls... at all.

I'm only posting this to try to help... I've looked into contributing several times but frankly I don't think I could handle some of the egos/attitudes around here, and yours isn't nearly as bad as others'.  I find you almost always reasonable and accommodating... I'm just commenting to try to help shed light on an outsiders perspective who has loved this game for a long time.  I think you're a good dude... people aren't attacking you as much as you think they are and lots of us like you and understand everyone is human.

Cheers buddy!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 06:27:41 AM by TheGerbilest »

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 08:39:36 AM »
While I agree that can be shitty for a person, part of being a leading figure in a project like this is dealing with that.
This right here is exactly the point. No, I do not have to sacrifice my own wellbeing by dealing with people I don't want to.  I demand a very low bar of civility, if it is not met I'm not going to keep dealing with you.  That is my prerogative as a human being and I do not have to abridge that for some nebulous sense of tolerance due to my 'position'.
If you can't handle it on your own you should spread out the load more as I've seen suggested earlier (in my opinion of course.)
I don't understand how this is supposed to work.  I simply do not have anyone in the project I can delegate this sort of thing to.
people aren't attacking you as much as you think they are and lots of us like you and understand everyone is human.
You're not "attacking" me, but you are telling me how I'm allowed to feel and respond to others.  That is unequivocally not ok.  You are telling me I cannot choose who I associate with. That is a basic fucking human right.

I believe you when you say your intentions are pure, but no, I have no intention of taking your advice and forcing myself to associate with people who are rude to me.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline Respawn

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 05:52:26 PM »
Er... Maybe everyone should take a step back, calm down, and look at all this more objectively?

(Oh the irony, a thread about an argument that escalated escalates)


Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Why was DangerNoodle banned?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 06:23:40 PM »
Someone made a necropost to an old thread and I replied. Where's the escalation?
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!