Author Topic: Sneaking  (Read 1448 times)

Offline Weyrling

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2017, 05:45:04 PM »
Just front and back sight will be enough. This is not about a lot of microcontrol and mouse required.
The issue is that this still doubles or triples the number of key presses required to do what are currently trivial actions that a player must perform a large number of times.

To add FoV to players such that a zombie might sneak up on you would increase the tedium of actually playing the game by potentially 100%.

The benefit being...
Inattentive players who don't want to double their keypresses might get ambushed by something, sometimes?

The change here can be summed up as "Players now have to hit keys twice as often to look around or search or notice things, and failure to do so has a small chance of sudden death".


A stealth system doesn't require player FoV and works perfectly fine to solve the issue of ambushes without making every other part of the game more tedious.

If a zombie further away is slightly harder to see, or if a zombie in tall grass is slightly harder to see, or if a zombie just moved it's easier to see, or if desks and tables and chairs and windows make things slightly harder to see past them, etcetera.
There could also be an awareness value based on things like whether you're sneaking or running, or if you're hungry or thirsty or tired or sad which would make you easier to sneak up on.

The only way I could want an FoV being partially implemented is if it simply modified the visibility of creatures opposite of any direction you just moved.
For example if your last action was to walk to the north, things to the south would get a visibility modifier similar to simply being further away.

Offline Litppunk

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2017, 06:06:57 PM »
Quote
The only way I could want an FoV being partially implemented is if it simply modified the visibility of creatures opposite of any direction you just moved.
For example if your last action was to walk to the north, things to the south would get a visibility modifier similar to simply being further away.

even this I would hesitate to call an "improving" mechanic especially in situations where the player is doing a lot of back and forth. Perhaps if it was a buildup to a still fairly minor penalty the longer the player went in "one" direction, with each movement changing penalties like so:
NW N NE
W . . .E
SW S SE
penalties:
NWP = __ NP =__  NEP = ___
etc...

So the proposed vision system would be similar to the health system (in that the system constantly moves a value towards another value) but with no random on the penalties/bonuses

standing still would be a target bonus value of... lets say 5 in all directions
moving N would move N penalty/bonus value towards 0
NE and NW towards -1
W and E towards -3
SW and SE towards -8
and S towards -10

value movements would be 1 in cases of > 5 and 2... maybe 3 in cases of <5 difference between target and current

Then these penalties would be applied to mob stealth bonuses, player perception(after exausted/focus penalties or perks) etc...

No I think that gets far to complicated on a per-turn caculations level. That seems like about as simple as it can get too. unless you want it to be a 2D direction last moved = 0 opposite = -10 which would lead too the tedium of run backwards every so often, or just sit still every so often or face ambushes from behind.... tedium?

I like the idea, but I can't imagine how it would work with a future CDDA stealth system without bogging down everything a bit.

A flat mobs terrain/movement stealth system and player system would be easier for players to understand through play, and would probably be a required prerequisite anyway to installing a directional movement penalty to perception system

Of coarse the main problem would be in large numbers of mobs such as a zombie horde which could be minimized by just saying if Z = horde member then skip all stealth calculations, and doing a similar thing where visible lit area is minimal, such as when entering a relatively small room.

I would like to point out that I am assuming terrain remains visible for referance, but perhaps "greys out" with tiles the "less aware" of an area it is. However it would be basically impossible to do in ASCII  this would quickly ostracize ASCII players and accessibility (blind players) for any fork that went this direction or force them to play in a manor they don't prefer.

But then Im certainly no SME (Subject Matter Expert) so I'd like to hear what those that know what they're talking about think about something down this alley.
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Offline Weyrling

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2017, 08:36:55 PM »
even this I would hesitate to call an "improving" mechanic especially in situations where the player is doing a lot of back and forth. Perhaps if it was a buildup to a still fairly minor penalty the longer the player went in "one" direction...
This seems far more complicated to do, I was mostly thinking of a fairly small effect that would simply be amplified by things like exhaustion or traits that reduce your awareness.
Quote
No I think that gets far to complicated on a per-turn caculations level. That seems like about as simple as it can get too. unless you want it to be a 2D direction last moved = 0 opposite = -10 which would lead too the tedium of run backwards every so often, or just sit still every so often or face ambushes from behind.... tedium?
This is more or less exactly what I would consider a legitimate gameplay change.
My numbers were more like 100% awareness in front and 75% awareness behind, though.

The tedium is minimal to non-existent and unless you have very poor awareness you'd still notice zombies moving around behind you, they could just get closer than normal if you only ever moved in one direction.
Also, I was thinking of applying a 'maximum' penalty based on other variables, such as whether you're running, walking, or sneaking.

If you're just walking you'd never reach the point of getting hit from behind unless you were basically falling asleep already.
Running would decrease general awareness in every direction except ahead of you, but you'd be moving faster anyways so it wouldn't matter a lot.
Sneaking would lower your visibility and increase your awareness at the cost of speed and maybe height (so you could see over fewer obstacles but you'd notice more things that are still within your sight).
Quote
I would like to point out that I am assuming terrain remains visible for referance, but perhaps "greys out" with tiles the "less aware" of an area it is. However it would be basically impossible to do in ASCII  this would quickly ostracize ASCII players and accessibility (blind players) for any fork that went this direction or force them to play in a manor they don't prefer.
I was going to assume the player has perfect memory regarding terrain, furniture, and traps. A FoV indicator seems a bit overkill though, honestly.

My suggestion was mostly just to add a slight tweak to an actual stealth system towards a given direction, by far the overwhelming factors should be distractions like tiredness, fatigue, focus, traits, obstacles, enemy visibility, sound, etc.

Offline §k

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2017, 01:40:44 AM »
Even if FOV is implemented, players would probably request an auto-look-around feature.

Offline Weyrling

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2017, 02:08:41 AM »
Even if FOV is implemented, players would probably request an auto-look-around feature.
Yeah, my suggestion was more along the lines of adding more depth to an actual stealth system in a fairly intuitive way that doesn't add too many keypresses and still allows for the turn abstraction.

Sneaking around would be the 'auto-look-around' feature that prioritizes maximum stealth+awareness.
If you're walking one direction you can still look over your shoulder and hear stuff behind you, but if you're running you don't really have time for that.


Though I did start punching in actual numbers to see how it would work out.
For default and usual values the change would be primarily thematic, the average player might barely or not even notice that they have different visibility distances ahead/behind them when walking around (average morale/focus, not sleepy or fatigued, etc).

It would only really come into play when you were already suffering from lack of awareness such as being exhausted, in which case it's simply adding a bit of urgency.
You'd already have trouble detecting nearby enemies that are obscured by the environment when in poor condition and it's a perfectly reasonable limitation on the player's local omniscience that you won't notice a crawling zombie several tiles behind you when you're having trouble staying awake to begin with.

Naturally if there were traits like "Oblivious" that lowered your overall awareness you could get snuck up on in a more regular situation.
But at that point you should have to deal with that kind of thing.

Offline snow dwarf

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2017, 06:19:24 AM »
Is it just me or did the thread go from 'the player can sneak' to 'monsters and environment will hide'?

Offline Coolthulhu

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2017, 06:42:54 AM »
Is it just me or did the thread go from 'the player can sneak' to 'monsters and environment will hide'?

It went from "simple hack to make player sneak" to "consequences of having (specific) visibility functions in the game".
What we certainly don't want is another hackjob like zombie grabs.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2017, 02:59:21 PM »
Is it just me or did the thread go from 'the player can sneak' to 'monsters and environment will hide'?
Conversation focuses on the controversial parts, having monsters not spot the player is totally uncontroversial and has no dramatic complications, so there's not much to discuss.
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Offline Litppunk

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Re: Sneaking
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2017, 01:04:36 AM »
besides one player or entities having anything aproaching a stealth mechanic means it makes things more tied together and whole if the other does too. Other wise parts of the game would begin to feel to disjointed. So impimenting one, means serious consideration should be given to how it should, or at least could be applied to other parts of the game.

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« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 01:31:55 AM by Litppunk »
Feeds both of grandpas wolves, and but doesn't let them fight; Then saves the car full of cash sells it and starts an orphanage, anti-railroad-tying shenanigans-organization and invests.