Author Topic: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline  (Read 35909 times)

Offline Gideon

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 02:59:28 PM »

You'll need to be playing with the Medieval Weapons pack enabled, AFAIK; if it wasn't present in the worldgen menu then Katanas are still in your mainline.  Either way, try pawnshops, gang fights, and Mansions.

Yeah, I know. I just seem to have terrible luck finding it.

Offline halberdsturgeon

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2014, 01:37:14 AM »
I found a katana in an upper class suburban house in 0.A, medieval weapons pack disabled.

Offline JohnieRWilkins

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 04:59:39 PM »
This document repeats the "high-end items are impossible to replicate artisan-style" theme on every page. Wouldn't the massive science labs have the equipment to make at least some of this stuff?  Is all of the science equipment irreparable? New England (Mass) is a place with a lot of biotech companies so surely there must be a partially automated bionics factory somewhere in the game world.

Offline KA101

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2014, 01:53:50 AM »
This document repeats the "high-end items are impossible to replicate artisan-style" theme on every page. Wouldn't the massive science labs have the equipment to make at least some of this stuff?  Is all of the science equipment irreparable? New England (Mass) is a place with a lot of biotech companies so surely there must be a partially automated bionics factory somewhere in the game world.

Depends and would need power, time, skill, and high-tech machinery/ingredients.  Frankly the CVD machine (1/7 Lab finale) is rather a stretch and may get revisited, but that's about the extent of high-end manufacturing equipment.

Offline GlyphGryph

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2014, 02:56:33 AM »
Note that I don't think it mentions being opposed to the player acquiring stuff through industrial processes.

I remember there being a proposal for a robot-based "factory" that allowed the player to essentially get a huge amount of some random good by re-activating the factory, which would then make it, and a skilled "computer"-user could change the settings to make something else instead, conceivably anything they have the plans for on a USB.

I think that's a great idea, factory might not last forever before breaking down but gives a use for computer-skill characters and allows another character to make 2,000 flashlights in addition to the 2,000 already in the factory store-room because why the hell not, right? :)

But it still wouldn't be the sort of "artisan crafting" the doc refers to, and would have to be it's own limited system is the key.

Offline Kevin Granade

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2014, 06:46:17 PM »
I think the clearest way to put it is this is a limitation of the crafting system.  New industrially produced items might be acquirable in some limited fashion via a robot factory, replicator, biotech device, but they would be special cases as opposed to simply adding a crafting recipe with the requisite tools and components.
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Offline ArgusTheCat

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2014, 07:54:21 PM »
I think that's a great idea, factory might not last forever before breaking down but gives a use for computer-skill characters and allows another character to make 2,000 flashlights in addition to the 2,000 already in the factory store-room because why the hell not, right? :)

The 'artisan crafting' thing kicks in afterward, when you build a vehicle-mounted flashlight cannon.

Oh, holy shit!  Maybe there could be some kind of enemy that only comes out at night and is damaged by light, and you could actually build a gun that shoots flashlights!  The more 'practical' (he says, with complete sincerity) version could be a machine gun that shoots glowsticks, so you don't have to use batteries!  Okay, I'll be right back, I need to go learn how to make a mod.
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Offline vultures

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2014, 07:38:59 PM »
A gazillion thumbs up for this effort, and the discussion topic too. (!) I'll be reading the fine googel-prynt long, long into the nite so expect me soon; bearing ideas of course.
Where do I squeeze in 0.A playtime? Oh Lord, it's a curse! :P
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Offline vultures

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2014, 05:11:23 PM »
Well, I can say I'm also up-to-pace regarding just about anything wrapped to look like the Outline that's been agreed upon.
Also, I must add it's contents are admirable at least, moreso I'm pleased - if not more than that; the in-depth perspective on CataDDA_world, very well thought-of and reasonable goes as a must-read for any and everyone looking to get involved with RLs in development. It's also good material coverage for those who suggest Lovecraftian mythos should feel (may sound wrong when spoken, but it's not) "imposing" on current efforts that concern fiction in general.

I do have some opinions overall that I'm about to share with all'y'alls. :)

I'ma leave mutations and their conseqences to the process-thinker of it all, for starters. It feels the included info in Design_Outline is to serve as a pointer and not experience, primarily because inside information (player feedback) is still being gathered to a point when it reaches a certain level needed for feature expansion. However, I must state these two (general) points of self-perspective:
1) "The Blob" is searching suitable hosts in order to adapt them, and the debris of its path of dominance are CataDDA mutations. It's not hard to imagine the lineage of horror/nightmare-ish fantasy dwells on ancient scriptures and works of art combined, consisting of but not inclusive of religious experiences and lore, if you wish. In order to relief the stress of compromising with recognized social measures of such canons - with them being "evil" or not - and common demonology, even though when knowing they're compromised with works of Tolkien and alike, one must also turn to nature's mechanics upon trying to score something unique in the progress of making a fantasy piece. It's not hard to perceive why the the first of those nature's creatures to fall under influence of that which is "nether" are, in basis, nocturnal and parasitical in a manner. Evolving a creature of a bat's nature perhaps is one of the finer examples for a starting point of design; it's a firm ground basis for both habitat and "ether-disease" spreading modes of operation. Don't feel derailed with certain bad examples in literature and cinema - and The Blob isn't a daytime infestation that preys on the strongest (bears, for ex.).
2) Reading through the Raptor's mutation outline I've noticed there's no predatorial equality in the "tiny world" of bugs. I can agree that wasps are a very dangerous entity that balance out spider mutations. It's the ants that are unmatched when we discuss their mandibles and protection. They easily find their nemesis (being they're so numerous) amongst more solitary types of insects that don't lack tools of war; moreso such bugs make up their lack in numbers with size and sheer power.

I wish to make an extra round-up on Gear_Up and Noncraftables sections.
Besides utmost understanding of the rare-war-gear decline, mainly because it opens up a "grande" discussion over other types of rarities that "could be found in New England, but won't be found" - I also have some sympathy for those who misunderstand "coolness" of in-game items and a self-centered wish to evolve from a decaying world, be it with a shiny ole' gun. There's been much, much discussion about books/knowledge and CataDDA so I'll just cut to the chase: If the player finds some crazy's notes on a WW1 Gatling manually operated gun, he/she should not be deprived of choice towards playing a little iron soldier in the world of Cataclysm. Knowing that, all those ticked-off concepts could have some place within the "extra" content this project's aiming for.
Now, regarding those hard-to-obtain, top-of-the-line hardware coded BLUE for NONE; I've been doing some research on my own (as you might've well suspected), and I feel you have to know two major facts:
1) Endless supply of anything in a game means that the particular game's orientation shifts slightly in that direction. Power armors, for example, are obtained by the US army of the time in STOCK numbers. This means that the resources for scrapping/repairing some are limited, yet obtainable. I feel these, and some chemical products that've bounced off prohibited use towards general population must have had some sort of a supply line before cataclysm. Same goes for solar panels, end-tier engines etc. that depend on uncommon resources and product/service lines. Must I note that small enterprizes offer product-line upgrades and services of the same, even today? It mustn't be hard to imagine a basement crammed with batches for such a specific purpose, if you know that access to such places of business is restricted to majority of regular users.
2) Hoarding and line-production have a common thing in particular, that is known as Industrial Power Outlet. Nearly every metropolitan area has one today, but tomorrow when it's defunct - a fresh stockpile of high-end tools and products is next to impossible. But as we all progress in this world, some things eventually give in - like microbrews in the last two or three decades, or industrial-grade precision lasers 5 years ago, today and absolutely - tomorrow. Therefore, if a player goes to such great lengths to obtain the means to generate enough power, and surplus, to operate a small yet efficient workshop, he/she should be able do repair and upgrade on the existing equipment. It is not an opinion based on the suspicion of current (future) techs that could be utilized to the full extent (nanotechnology, molecular biology), but the exploit of accessible and spot-evident machines and tools that, without sufficient power input, lack any operational value ATM.

May I also add that before this, survival genre, there was an adventure genre. It offered loads of ideas along with its traits; concepts forgotten or left to be, it's echo still lingers: "To venture into the unknown, and accomplish the unachievable." Let us all ignite our brainstorming circuits on that one. :)
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Offline Patto

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2014, 12:43:58 PM »
I agree with what Vulture is saying.

But there needs to be more options for sustainable players. e.g. Slowly re-spawning creatures in static spawn. E.g. Rabbits and squirrels reproduce relatively quickly, whilst wolves reproduce relatively slowly. I have run out of food in some areas.

Farming NEEDS to be improved.

Areas with high amounts of near useless rubbish would be good. Recycling centres would be a good place for human refuse, or landfill sites.

More sustainable vehicles, fuel will run out. So we either need the option of creating fuel (bio generator, add raw crops, get fuel out), or the addition of pack animals, e.g. Ridable horses (which will need to be fed, e.g. grass, hay), along with carts.
 
It just seems that if you want to play the game you need to become a military equipped mutant Rambo. I myself would rather play as Joe Bloggs, who has been left deep in a shit-filled world and needs to survive. Just think about it, the average person would be running away from zombies every time they saw one. Where's that more 'realistic' side of people and the means to live that way.


Offline Binky

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 07:04:51 PM »
I agree with what Vulture is saying.

But there needs to be more options for sustainable players. e.g. Slowly re-spawning creatures in static spawn. E.g. Rabbits and squirrels reproduce relatively quickly, whilst wolves reproduce relatively slowly. I have run out of food in some areas.

Farming NEEDS to be improved.

Areas with high amounts of near useless rubbish would be good. Recycling centres would be a good place for human refuse, or landfill sites.

More sustainable vehicles, fuel will run out. So we either need the option of creating fuel (bio generator, add raw crops, get fuel out), or the addition of pack animals, e.g. Ridable horses (which will need to be fed, e.g. grass, hay), along with carts.
 
It just seems that if you want to play the game you need to become a military equipped mutant Rambo. I myself would rather play as Joe Bloggs, who has been left deep in a shit-filled world and needs to survive. Just think about it, the average person would be running away from zombies every time they saw one. Where's that more 'realistic' side of people and the means to live that way.

While I too really want DDA to expand the survival/realism side more, I think that (without having a very complex DF like system) creating completely self-sustainable environments would lead to the game becoming pretty boring fast. The player needs to have something to risk themselves for (gas, food, so on) or it'd become stale after an hour or two as they can just get everything they need whilst they level up to infinity and beyond. Even with roving hordes/raiding npcs, it'd still become way to easy for the player to build a fortress and never need to come out (or you'd have to make the attackers mega strong, which would unbalance things for non-fortress type players)

I think we just need to tone everything down a bit, so less of the mutant rambo (until much later on) and more of the survival type stuff.

Offline CIB

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2014, 07:38:11 PM »
Even with roving hordes/raiding npcs, it'd still become way to easy for the player to build a fortress and never need to come out (or you'd have to make the attackers mega strong, which would unbalance things for non-fortress type players)

I agree with you in general, but I think it should actually be possible to "settle down" and gain a lot of benefits. The one important disadvantage is that you can't just up and run whenever something beyond your skills to kill appears. I think this balances things out.

If NPCs ever start working properly, I believe we could also have a system where a faction has both people tending to the fortress, and people going out on scavenging missions/raids. In such a setup, the player would have a lot of freedom in which activity to focus on.

Offline argast

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2014, 11:03:02 PM »
I think a goal should be an option. There should be a forever mode, where there is no goal, which is already implemented, and a goal mode where the user chooses a goal or is assigned one.

Why ? Because the game gets boring fast without a goal, and is not as memorable as it would be with a goal, IMO. This would also keep people that don't want a goal happy because they can use the forever mode. I think this single change will increase the popularity of the game. Also, all rogue-likes I've ever played (except this one) have had a goal ... kill the boss on level 99, bring his heart up, get an item at level 99, bring it up, etc.

EDIT:
Possible goals:
Collect parts to build a space ship and fly to the secret gov't base on the moon.
Discover a cure for the zombie affliction, by collecting / researching ingredients.
Make it to the secret gov't bunker deep underground.
Make a secure, fortified city with human inhabitants that you'll have to find.

Technically, instead of a goal, these could be made into achievements and the game could just continue forever as it currently does.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 11:09:08 PM by argast »

Offline KA101

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2014, 11:26:25 PM »
I think a goal should be an option. There should be a forever mode, where there is no goal, which is already implemented, and a goal mode where the user chooses a goal or is assigned one.

Why ? Because the game gets boring fast without a goal, and is not as memorable as it would be with a goal, IMO. This would also keep people that don't want a goal happy because they can use the forever mode. I think this single change will increase the popularity of the game. Also, all rogue-likes I've ever played (except this one) have had a goal ... kill the boss on level 99, bring his heart up, get an item at level 99, bring it up, etc.

EDIT:
Possible goals:
Collect parts to build a space ship and fly to the secret gov't base on the moon.
Discover a cure for the zombie affliction, by collecting / researching ingredients.
Make it to the secret gov't bunker deep underground.
Make a secure, fortified city with human inhabitants that you'll have to find.

Technically, instead of a goal, these could be made into achievements and the game could just continue forever as it currently does.

OK, so by "goal" you're mostly meaning "successful end condition".  Those have come up from time to time.

We've even kicked around the possibility of the US having a space station off at a WAY FAR IN DEEP SPACE stable teleport point, which obviously would be the place to go when the Earth is messed up.  (Except that it isn't, what with the problem coming out of the portals and all.)

Idea was that the jump there would be one-way (power requirement, etc) and you're more screwed there than you were on Earth, so I didn't think much of it.

The lore already has a way to remove the Blob from corpses: teleporting has a small chance per teleport of leaving the Blob back in its home plane.  (Once we implement the Nether Cliff teleporting would have a chance of purging your "infection" entirely.)  Problem is, teleporting a lot in a short timeframe and small area tends to weaken the interdimensional boundaries, so you end up with more nether portals.  Cure's worse than the disease.  Securing a stable two-way portal and passing your faction through it or something might be workable, though.

Meeting up with powerful factions seems like a good gamechanger but not necessarily an ending condition.

So yeah: decent ideas.  I'm more fond of "significant game-changer" goals than "OK you're done start a new character I Said Good Day!" ending conditions.  Got a bit of RPer in me, I fear.  ;-)

Offline i2amroy

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Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2014, 07:57:57 AM »
So yeah: decent ideas.  I'm more fond of "significant game-changer" goals than "OK you're done start a new character I Said Good Day!" ending conditions.  Got a bit of RPer in me, I fear.  ;-)
Agreed. My vote would be firmly against any sort of true "finish this and the game ends" type of goal.

(As for the deep space thing, I had always imagined that if you managed to fully clear out the place you could potentially set up a return portal, after all the politicians and scientists who designed it may have wanted to escape the apocalypse, but they would also want a way back for when the apocalypse finally settled down.)