Author Topic: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline  (Read 34823 times)

Offline Darkfirephoenix

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2014, 03:18:38 PM »
No "HARD" goal for me too (game ending) unless in an Cenario or such stuff. And I share 90% of Vultures view. To be more exact: If you want to build an working factory with machines, needed resources, power and foremost TIME (and I don't mean the 5 hours in realtime, I talk about 10+ hours) you should be able too.

I mean, what would an normal person do? Answer: Search for all the stuff he/she needs to survive, wich includes hunting, planting and searching for an water-source. After that the next target is normally to improve your situation further, maybe by building an Shelter for yourself, get higher class equipment and so on. And finally: You will want to secure your (now) living standard and want to improve it even further, most ppl would search for possibilities to build/construct tools and other stuff wich could help them and I could imagine that an survivor with enough knowledge, intellect and skills would try to get to the level of tech wich was present before the Cataclysm happend (he would plunder/build machines needed to make better stuff, plunder Labs and maybe even find Blueprints for new stuff wich was only theoretical worked out... take a look into here to get the gist of my ideas and what I'm talking about http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=6068.0).

And here are some points the devs would have to take a further look at: Quantum Computing (Quantum Science in general. The quantum Computing is atm at the stage normal computing had 20-30 Years in the past), Organic Batteries/Accumulators (yes I have watched the Youtube video about the 30 sec charging phone. And 1 question: Why are there no Recharable batteries?), the plans for Space from the industry (yes america wants to get ppl on the moon again in at least 20 years or so. But don't underestimate the speed the Industry/Companies will show if they think that there is profit. And I would think that an Conservative America would still go after the prestige) and the resulting Tech-boom from it....

But I think the Devs have thought about most of them already, but I think the game should be update regulary with the newest inventions wich most likely will be an success, because nobody can predict the future with 100% (or imagine what the Mind of other Humans can come up with... Hrmm This is the reason this part of the forum was made, or? :D)

Offline vultures

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1644
  • Reticulating Splines.
    • View Profile
    • The Causeway
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2014, 01:25:48 PM »
Yeah --- profit-worthy purely determines availability. But then, look at cellular phones @ ingame_present and you'll start putting more of your thoughts over satellite, or wireless (I'm still with the idea that the mobile base is a big thing, 'cuz as for now - your den can easily be overrun imho). There is, however, yet another point of you I wish to discuss here, though briefly.
I've spotted a bunch of indie/RL titles recently that dwell on the fact that gameplay could be shifted some decades ago. I suspect this is due to the nature of the spoiled gamer who wants to improve his session(s) with just about anything he finds on the internetZ or his whereabouts. Thus, the designers pull a hard one in terms of in-game availability, stating this is the date, and that's where you're at. NQA. This is a fantasy-gameplay legacy: show the players a world they can handle, and make a few exceptions to agree on end-game content. Even if you enjoy futuresque worlds for example, you'll wish for some, yet intelligent, improvements over the preset "pool" of skills and item behavior. I find this above all normal, though I will conclude.
If you draw a clear marker for top-achievers (in terms of content), you've gotta have a perfect one for bottom ones, too. Implying the commons, really - if the railroad is absolutely obsolete, you have to determine just how much of it is keepsaked, and make up some kind of useability treshold. Keeping that same whirlwind out of plasma weaponry with limited supply of fuel cells, for example, is fairly easy - you just make them non-craftable. The problem I see here is with some really dated electronics, methods of communication (and transport is already implied) and non-clean energy sources, that should find very, very limited use as it is, by a large number, discarded because it's beyond repair.
"On Labor Day the vultures disappeared. Nobody could remember when they had not circled early dawn.  Death's falcons.  Turning miles above the arid northwest reaches of Tribeca tethered by scent."

The Absent Vultures of Tribeca
by Douglas Anthony Cooper

Offline CIB

  • Contributor
  • Survivor
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2014, 03:05:05 PM »
I think such a goal system would be a really ineffective solution to the general problem of there not being much context to the game, except personal survival. The "proper" fix to that will be the scenario system, NPCs, factions, and generally a world that has more "life" put into it by keeping track of high-level events(compare: DF adventure mode).

Offline Darkfirephoenix

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2014, 08:04:36 PM »
...Hrmmm it seems that some of my ideas are a bit overboard and even game-breaking if you have enough time and all the stuff implemented I thought off, an limitation to my ideas would be that you have to find components wich are needed to build most of the sutff. I mean building a fusion-reactor IS possible in real live with a ton of research-time, building time and some High-tech components (wich need raw materials from other parts of the world even [China etc. and I highly doubt the New-England has most of the raw materials needed]), so you would have to search in EXTREMLY dangerous locations to maybe find the parts needed or you even find an partially build Fusion-Generator. But Robots and such stuff are relatively easy to build if you have the knowledge and the components (a robot Hull made from Iron/Steel, something to power it [Robots operate on electricity after all], servos etc. and ofc the programming).

Most of my Nanite-Stuff has to be either found by you or made by you (but it would ofc require you finding OTHER Nanites first and a TON of power [a Plutonium Cell / an fully charged Accumulator in the size 10m x 10m [meters for our miles and such stuff using friends] or an running Fusion/Fission-Generator]) and did I mention all the calculation power needed? I can understand if the devs don't want to implement such stuff, but it would be an good idea for an mod or such! ;)

And don't forget the time factor.... So let's calculate the time needed to get this far for my high-tech stuff to come into play (and I will calculate the average player, not some lucky sob player): Trying to find a good place to stay + minimum supply on tools, food and skills = 10h Getting some more high end stuff: CBMs, Mutations, weapons = 5-10h And now we get to my stuff: Finding it 1-5h, getting the needed skills/knowledge on the needed level = 1-5h and time needed to get it all running smoothly: 1-5h (the time needed for my stuff would havily depend on how lucky you are and how you prepare to use it) So overall time usage = 18-35h without dying and you actively searching for the components. If you die... well you have to get at least all the needed skills/knowledge even if you have collected all the stuff, wich could lead to 10+ hours again (if your supplies don't run out / "Friends" want to visit you and you have to get outta there).

I'm not good at all this low-tech earlier to get stuff, if you haven't thought about it already! :P But I have some ideas regarding this matter ofc too... Why don't you post some ideas in my thread btw? Hrmm an mobile base could be relatively easy to do: An vehicle with some Solar panels, Kitchen Unit, an little "workshop" (all the tools needed) and an portable growing station (an little greenhouse, it isn't that hard really and could you supply [depending on the size ofc] with all the food you need).

And my viewpoint on the matter regarding Devs making EVERYTHING the players want (content etc.): I think that the devs should implement only the stuff they deem worthy and fitting of the game, they shouldn't try to implement ideas wich don't fit the setting etc. even if some of the "fans"/players REALLY want it, but the devs should give some reasons why they don't want to implement some stuff. If the fans/players REALLY want something: There are still possibilities to mod it in, but only after asking the devs first ofc. ;)

Offline vultures

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1644
  • Reticulating Splines.
    • View Profile
    • The Causeway
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2014, 07:28:38 PM »
Quote from: Darkfirephoenix
nd my viewpoint on the matter regarding Devs making EVERYTHING the players want (content etc.): I think that the devs should implement only the stuff they deem worthy and fitting of the game, they shouldn't try to implement ideas wich don't fit the setting etc. even if some of the "fans"/players REALLY want it, but the devs should give some reasons why they don't want to implement some stuff. If the fans/players REALLY want something: There are still possibilities to mod it in, but only after asking the devs first ofc. ;)
I guess you misinterpreted the term "outline" as-is; a team of people or a community afterall can refit the suit of borderline exceptions as to make different, even better conclusions. In fact, CataDDA is very well maintained so it's prone to such a change one time or another... the thing is, this is DDA_interpretation_outline and it stands in a different place than the original (Whales' Cataclysm) did. As I once wrote, it would be a happy occurance if we modded CataDDA into a Warcraft2_Tides_of_Darkness simulator, with all the races and classes, scenery and dwellings - simply because this game is a perfect codebase for that. This also means the power_off switch for a good number of balancing presets throughout the game. I reckon this to be the case with various material that could supplement the game over the top, like high-grade military weapons or even safehouses/shelters built so tight they reminescence the vaults.
FYI, mobile bases are a long_beforeseen thing, and a milestone for determining just how much electric output should one have in game in order to keep things neat and balanced. And because we're slowly gliding towards working NPC classes, I want to comprehend and share the outline for just about anything that could and would use electric current supply, and to discuss just how much the communications systems are impaired in game time.
"On Labor Day the vultures disappeared. Nobody could remember when they had not circled early dawn.  Death's falcons.  Turning miles above the arid northwest reaches of Tribeca tethered by scent."

The Absent Vultures of Tribeca
by Douglas Anthony Cooper

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5235
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2014, 08:10:39 AM »
And my viewpoint on the matter regarding Devs making EVERYTHING the players want (content etc.): I think that the devs should implement only the stuff they deem worthy and fitting of the game, they shouldn't try to implement ideas wich don't fit the setting etc. even if some of the "fans"/players REALLY want it, but the devs should give some reasons why they don't want to implement some stuff. If the fans/players REALLY want something: There are still possibilities to mod it in, but only after asking the devs first ofc. ;)
That's pretty much what we do.  In the end, if you aren't fully behind something, if you don't "get it", it's not going to come out well. At the same time we try and explain why we're doing things the way we are too.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline RAM

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 751
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2014, 12:43:40 AM »
I think the clearest way to put it is this is a limitation of the crafting system.  New industrially produced items might be acquirable in some limited fashion via a robot factory, replicator, biotech device, but they would be special cases as opposed to simply adding a crafting recipe with the requisite tools and components.
This makes me think on how far it should be possible to rebuild civilisation. It seems certain that at some point one will be able to recruit N.P.C.s and have them loiter at a base. Presumably they defend that base. Once you give them all strong but renewable armour, and let's say, pneumatic crossbows, they probably won't die from violence. But will they starve? Or run out of ammunition? Can you have runners butchering corpses and gathering fruit for a chef, and chopping wood for bolts? Can they operate a farm? Farm blobs for mutagen and purifier? Build walls? Can they go out on patrols in their pedal-powered armoured battering-ram and knock over encroaching Triffid groves? Can they plant forests for perpetual wood production? Could you build a completely self-sufficient and perpetually safe settlement? Can your faction then breed and multiply? And if you have a self-sufficient community of formerly civilised folk with access to a large supply of technical documentation, is it infeasible for them to start recreating lost technology? Should your faction be limited the crafting recipes and construction options or should they start building concrete walls and internal combustion engines?
 It seems to me that "How much civilisation is possible?" is an inevitable question if survivor factions become a reality. And it seems that it will be quite a divisive question as people start asking why a successful community of people who were presumably educated before the cataclysm cannot do something, or why an individual survivor cannot do what a community can do, and will be further complicated by suggestions like raiding government bunkers for technical experts advanced military designs...
 For myself... I would probably prefer to be able to eventually reconstruct the society we had before, but I could be content with loading my base' guards with gear that I crafted...

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5235
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2014, 07:02:05 AM »
If/when we get the point of having a dedicated NPC workforce, we can revisit the "no manufactured goods" concept, but for now the focus is on the lone survivor , and the limitations that scenario imposes.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline vultures

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1644
  • Reticulating Splines.
    • View Profile
    • The Causeway
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2014, 11:52:55 AM »
To the point of NPC, or colony outline - I do have some doubts. As far as I can remember, we had only several attempts to agree on facts, and from wide angles, too. The official timeline pours little in the same pool of discussion treads, so not much to disclose, really:
- you're pushed out to survive in a deadly New England setting, only to find a few of those still alive being just as miserable as you are;
- by the look of things (labs, military facilities) even the best of the organized groups were forced to dissolve into the newfound world;
- beacons of signal do happen, but there is no indication whatsoever as to what actually happened in those desolate outposts.

The border I can see here could check in again for the same reality bubble within the 9/18/36 months span.
"On Labor Day the vultures disappeared. Nobody could remember when they had not circled early dawn.  Death's falcons.  Turning miles above the arid northwest reaches of Tribeca tethered by scent."

The Absent Vultures of Tribeca
by Douglas Anthony Cooper

Offline Zireael

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1974
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2014, 08:25:08 AM »
If/when we get the point of having a dedicated NPC workforce, we can revisit the "no manufactured goods" concept, but for now the focus is on the lone survivor , and the limitations that scenario imposes.

Great to know.

Offline Ebon Kitsune

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2014, 12:53:41 PM »
Along the lines of the balked at "race to the airport" idea... Cataclysm is a freeform roguelike, and in that vein, wouldn't the same principles apply?... This idea, from a purely coding standpoint, could get horrifically complex, but could work well with the future faction system, should static factions like the government or military exist in some manner (ala, Fallout)

You could race to the airport to try and find sanctuary of sorts, residing there, taking orders from the camp leader, doing quests for ranking members and other survivors, perhaps even working up through the ranks to become the leader yourself.

You could merely treat them as neighbors or trading partners, utilizing them as another resource, trading foods, medicines, ammo, and whatever else you need with them.

Alternatively, you could kill them all for the loot and supplies, or perhaps even assassinate the leader and declare your authority over the rest.

Cataclysm is, at heart, a post-apocalypse survival roguelike... and as such, there's no reason to assume that people wouldn't do such things to 'survive'

Offline RAM

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 751
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2014, 02:58:19 AM »
If they were just 'there' then it would detract a lot from the 'total cataclysm'ness of the scenario. Perhaps if they were obviously struggling it would be more attuned to the prevailing vibe... Suppose that they would exile or execute people as their food supplies dwindled. That they would start burning through defenders as their ammunition supplies were exhausted. That over time their armour corrodes into worthlessness and they all sacrifice the shirts off of their backs to repair what they could. Sort of a sense that short of a horde that they couldn't lure away, or a grove moving in next door, that they could basically survive any trauma, but that their are burning through their proportional supplies much faster than a lone survivor would, and will perish if they exhaust those supplies...

Offline Kevin Granade

  • Administrator
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5235
  • I code dead people.
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2014, 04:20:23 AM »
I'm totally on board with having quests and even story arcs and such, and interacting with a faction that changes over time and has to manage its resources would be simply AMAZING.  the distinction is these would all be a choice rather than imposed on the player.
by default anyway, starting scenarios are also something we'd love to do.
Its like a fun family cookout, except your family is burning in flames while trying to eat you. -secretfire
I'm more excited than a survivor on meth and toast'ems. -Nighthawk
The the giant wasp is slammed through the zombie brute!

Offline Ebon Kitsune

  • Zombie Food
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2014, 06:13:46 AM »
Why not simply have options such as static factions/cities/whatever else as a module option that can be loaded in through the "Mods to use" panel that pops up when creating a new world, similar to how we have weapons and content packs currently? The beauty of a game like this is the freedom of choice that can potentially given to the player, so why not capitalize on it?

Offline Stretop

  • NPC
  • **
  • Posts: 132
  • Chimera of Longevity
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2015, 10:17:32 PM »
Quote
You would have to build the tools to build the tools, and that’s likely to take generations.

I would like to know rationale behind this statement. It seems to bee at odds with what is seen in game.

Let's look at it from historical point of view. For this statement to be true two conditions must be fulfilled:

1) This statement is applied to (local) civilization as whole. On personal level it does not work: inventors throughout recorded history create new tools, sometimes far ahead of their time. Example: widespread use of steam engines began in XVIII century. But the first one to create such engine was Hero of Alexandria in I century.

2) (More important) System, to which this statement is applied, must have no contact with technology more advanced than its own. Otherwise its technological progress would be greatly sped up. For example look at Japan during Meiji Restoration.

Neither of these is true for Cataclysm's survivor:

1) He is one person, which means that he is not slowed down by need to mass-implement technology for it to be usable by him.

2) He is literally surrounded by pre-Cataclysm material culture (including technology).

Some would say that it is implicit that most of the remaining technology is completely destroyed and unusable. To such statement I must answer that it is factually wrong: all that technology is unpowered and severely undersupplied, some of it suffered external damage from local XE037-influenced lifeforms; but I do not see anything indicating that there was any major damaging factors that would affect inorganic entities and inert matter.

XE037 seems to be targeting only animals; fungus-like denizens alter plant life - neither of them (nor other denizens) seems to be interested in destrution of human technology. As for external threats: as most of technology (specifically - different electronics) found even in undefended surface structures are in working order, New England could not be subjected to any kind of technology-destructive influence (like wide area EMP or some side-effect of sub-prime influence).

As it stands now, with
1) Reliable sources of power avaiable (specifically - from solar-powered vehicles),
2) Sufficient skill (which can be acquired via books and practice),
3) Knowledge (which can be acquired via books, surviving consoles, practice and field research)
4) Supplies (which can be acquired via scavenging and recycling)
much of technology can be restored to some degree on small (personal) scale.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 10:24:11 PM by Stretop »